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Jeff Frank: (October 20, 2009 8:27am)

Obviousman, you are stuck in 2005 mentality. How long have they owned the home? What was the purchase price? If the house was being sold right now what do you think it would sell for? Whining about the customer not getting his monthly savings is just whining if the value really isn't there to protect the lender if the customer defaults, and a customer that needs to consolidate is much riskier than one just looking to do a r/t refi.

Jeff Frank: (October 20, 2009 8:26am)

Obviousman, you are stuck in 2005 mentality. How long have they owned the home? What was the purchase price? If the house was being sold right now what do you think it would sell for? Whining about the customer not getting his monthly savings is just whining if the value really isn't there to protect the lender if the customer defaults, and a customer that needs to consolidate is much riskier than one just looking to do a r/t refi.

Obviousman: (October 19, 2009 9:55am)

An appraisal is an opinion of value, and here is recent proof. I inherited a loan another loan officer at another company couldn't close for a really dumb reason. However, we could not get the appraisal transferred for our use and the client ended-up having to pay for another appraisal to be done. The new one came in 13% lower than the first one, using 2 of the same 3 comps, but each appraiser attributed different adjustments for those comps. So where are we now? My client has paid for two appraisals in 30 days and because the new appraisal came in to much lower we don't have a debt consolidation refinance that would save my client nearly $800 a month in cold hard cash. How does not saving the client that much money a month benefit them? Cuomo, are you listening?

Faun: (October 19, 2009 4:28am)

Hey Sniper, news flash. When people want to sell their homes, they call a Realtor because we have the skills to maximize the value of their investment. But you've got me thinking, maybe we shouldn't name a price on our contracts any more, because after all, we can rely on the appraiser to do our thinking for us, right? Maybe all contracts should just name a buyer and seller and a closing date, and then the appraiser can step in and take it from there! Better yet, maybe Sellers could just hire an appraiser to sell their houses for them. Yes, that sounds good, let's get rid of those pesky Realtors, that'll fix the market! Appraisers can just "drive by" and tell everyone what their house is worth! All list prices could just be determined by an appraiser, then everyone can sell their homes FSBO on Craig's List, and we won't need those sleazy Realtors ever again! Hooray! Oh, yeah, and one more thing, blogging doesn't give you carte blanche to commit libel - see you in court!

DiverMike: (October 15, 2009 4:56pm)

HVCC is for the benefit of title insurance companies, PERIOD. Cuomo is a reported stakeholder. Former Head of OFHEO (Lockhart) is an alleged shareholder. AMCs do not exert less pressure-they exert far more, AND engage in price fixing. Reliability of an AMC ordered appraisal is less than 50%! We need to: (1) Repeal all HVCC regulations. (2) Forbid AMCs in Federal transactions UNLESS the person ordering the appraisal AND deciding on the appraiser is also licensed in the state the appraisal is being done in, AND at the level required for complex appraisals. (3) Make comp checks legal. With disclosure that such checks are inherantly inaccurate and prone to wide variance; but at least let us have the discussion with our clients legally. (4) The MORE I know of a property or deal, as an appraiser, the better I am able to do my job. (5) LET me talk to everyone on a deal! Im a professional, and I KNOW how to say "no" when being pushed toward something illegal or unethical.

DiverMike: (October 15, 2009 4:23pm)

Gents, Respect your HVCC / Appraiser comment re "shopping", but you clearly do not understand that IT IS AGAINST STATE AND FEDERAL LAW for ANY appraiser to give out ANY value estimate until we have actually completed the appraisal. This is NOT our choice. Id prefer to be able to legally do comp checks, but comp checks from an appraiser are ILLEGAL! In my practice, we always had to 'dance around' this issue. I knew what expected value range was. I asked LOTS of questions. IF I anticipated a problem, Id discuss it. I never accepted an assignment where I knew in advance that the anticipated value was not likely. I HAD to decline comp checks & ESPECIALLY value predictions or guarantees BY LAW, BUT my clients ALWAYS knew Id DO MY JOB. They knew that if any value was "lower than hoped" it was not because of a lazy, or inexperienced appraiser. I used to be the guy that was called on problem deals because of my experience, but even then there was never a guarantee of hitting a given value.

be kind: (October 15, 2009 8:33am)

We should have the option of shopping for appraisers. What if the homeowners completed upgrades that gives the property a better value? Those appaisers who complete appaisals based on comps within the neighborhood and ignore the actual value of the property based on upgrades hould be shot! My house may look the same outside but inside I definitly have more value than my neighbor because my upgrade are a value my neighbor cannot offer!

be kind: (October 15, 2009 8:32am)

We should have the option of shopping for appraisers. What if the homeowners completed upgrades that gives the property a better value? Those appaisers who complete appaisals based on comps within the neighborhood and ignore the actual value of the property based on upgrades hould be shot! My house may look the same outside but inside I definitly have more value than my neighbor because my upgrade are a value my neighbor cannot offer!

be kind: (October 15, 2009 8:32am)

We should have the option of shopping for appraisers. What if the homeowners completed upgrades that gives the property a better value? Those appaisers who complete appaisals based on comps within the neighborhood and ignore the actual value of the property based on upgrades hould be shot! My house may look the same outside but inside I definitly have more value than my neighbor because my upgrade are a value my neighbor cannot offer!

be kind: (October 15, 2009 8:31am)

We should have the option of shopping for appraisers. What if the homeowners completed upgrades that gives the property a better value? Those appaisers who complete appaisals based on comps within the neighborhood and ignore the actual value of the property based on upgrades hould be shot! My house may look the same outside but inside I definitly have more value than my neighbor because my upgrade are a value my neighbor cannot offer!

be kind: (October 15, 2009 8:30am)

We should have the option of shopping for appraisers. What if the homeowners completed upgrades that gives the property a better value? Those appaisers who complete appaisals based on comps within the neighborhood and ignore the actual value of the property based on upgrades hould be shot! My house may look the same outside but inside I definitly have more value than my neighbor because my upgrade are a value my neighbor cannot offer!

rockinrhondarealtor: (October 15, 2009 6:05am)

I am a new realtor in North Carolina. The problem is the good old buddy system has to end. I sold a new house for 190,000. directly from a builder. It appraised for 185,000. So he says not to worry and calls his guy and it appraised for 192.000.What the hell is that? the buddy system is not good for the client. Since we as REALTORS do CMA we need some help from appraisers! How far do they go with comps ect? All realtors fresh out of school should get a regional guide from appraisers to help us. And the buddy system has to die!

fnky 1: (October 14, 2009 9:24pm)

Shopping a appraiser is the best thing for anyone to do. Thats almost like shopping for a car at one place. You want to shop around for the best deal and not settle.

fnky 1: (October 14, 2009 9:24pm)

Shopping a appraiser is the best thing for anyone to do. Thats almost like shopping for a car at one place. You want to shop around for the best deal and not settle.

Here to stay: (October 14, 2009 9:19pm)

CA Broker, Cert. Appraiser and Realtor and my wife is a seasoned loan officer - so I know her pains and yours. We are getting hit on all sides!But guys, HVCC is not ever going away. Why? Because it is there to protect (no - not the loan officers; no - not the appraisers; no - not even the homeowners) the lenders! Appraisals are in place to protect the lender, not your deal. Loan officers will never be able to "shop value" again - those days are long gone. I don't like the current HVCC rules any more than anyone else and they do need adjusting. But it's here to stay folks.

Central Valley: (October 14, 2009 8:04pm)

Oh, and by the way. It's ok to shop appraisers (everyone should)but, shopping values????

Central Valley: (October 14, 2009 7:54pm)

James, Brian, and Lender. It's hard to believe that you don't understand why the appraiser needs the contract. First, Brian is correct, the contract can be used as an indicator of value but it has to be supported by additional data. IF an appraisal indicates and adjusted range of 150k to 155k, and the contract price is 153k Guess wear it should be reconciled. Second part. If the seller is paying the buyers cc and contributing to the dp it needs to be addressed and purchase price/value may not be the same. If seller is including 10k in personal property in the purchase price, the purchase price of the RE is actually 10k less. There are a lot of things the appraiser needs to be looking at in the contract and thus needed. This all goes back to my earlier post "we all need to know how each operates to do our jobs competently". It is all about consumer protection!

CA Realtor: (October 14, 2009 7:04pm)

I know it's not always the appraiser who screws up a deal...IT'S THE BANK..they don'teven accept their own approved appraisers appraisal... an appraiser with over 40 years experience was told he didn't know what he was doing by an inexperienced underwriter who was instryxted by the bank to BLOW THE DEAL..because they had locked in a extremely low rate and did not want to do the loan.

EdC: (October 14, 2009 6:46pm)

I know quit yer bitchin. We're guests in THEIR house here and you dare to belittle our hosts??!! You are not professionals and do not know how to conduct yourself in someone elses home with decorum. You've made a poor spectacle of yourselves and our profession and you've made me feel ashamed to admit to being an appraiser. I've got more to say but things seem to be calming down so I won't stir the pot. 20 years experience residential appraisal. I think you guys owe Frank and Brian an apology.

CA Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 6:40pm)

quit yer bitchin! I agree. But, today's video was a step in the wrong direction. It is too late now and the damage has been done.

Stingray: (October 14, 2009 6:39pm)

Wow, this has been quite a post. Very comical. However, it really demonstrates the disconnect between appraisers and mortgage personnel. Logically, Frank and Brian make sense if you're not an appraiser. However, Appraisers are beaten over the head with USPAP compliance and we must adhere to it. Because nobody can understand what an appraiser is required to do (except an appraiser), this argument will never end. The two factions will never see eye to eye on this issue unless each is trained in and experiences the others' profession.

quit yer bitchin!: (October 14, 2009 6:28pm)

You guys need to leave Frank and Brian alone, they alone have done more than anyone for fighting HVCC and helping prolong our careers!

LL: (October 14, 2009 6:26pm)

Instead of brokers/lenders complaining that someone "ruined your deal" maybe you should educate yourself in all facets of real estate. It amazes me that someone can work in the real estate industry and know so little about the other professions pertaining to it. Maybe if they took the time to learn about all areas they could then stop a deal from being ruined at the outset. I am a state certified appraiser but I also take realtor classes as I'm a Realtor, underwriting guideline classes, constantly network with lenders/brokers/bankers, and have best friends in the construction end of the business. The more I think about it, I've never complained about someone ruining my deal bc....I KNEW WHAT I WAS DOING....those of you that complain about a deal gone wrong should do yourself a favor and educate yourself instead of writing profanity laced tirades and claiming to punch people. Your actions scream of B & C lending that will soon be out of a job...and you deserve it.

CA Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 6:12pm)

Word up James the Appraiser. I would love for the Puncher to show up @ my shop.

James the Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 6:10pm)

The puncher - what state are you in, I hope your in California, I can't wait for you get one of my report, oh boy, oh boy, glad to see such an A$$ Hole like you is still walking around in the world

CA Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 6:08pm)

I hope the "Puncher" story is not true. If it is I can guarantee you will do time.

CA Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 6:06pm)

This discussion has turned into a sad example of how you can be anyone you want to be on the internet. Remember that we are all in this together. Without lenders/Loan officers etc... appraisers have no appraisal orders and without good appraisers lenders/loan officers have no fundings. "Can't we all get along"

LL: (October 14, 2009 6:05pm)

Guys, you comments were not entirely wrong but they were irresponsible. An appraisal is an opinion....based on standard procedures, rules, practices, etc. You made it sound as if someone could put on it whatever they wish, which is not true. Then you said it's ok to shop an appraisal and if the appraiser does wrong they deserve to get in to trouble. Why would anyone need to shop an appraisal? Don't you have several trustworthy appraisers that can give you a range? You said it helps the customer to shop the appraisal? In what way? To get them in to a home over valued or refi in the same manner? Your comments make it sound as if you get on the phone and call whoever will hit a number and then you don't care if they get in trouble all in the name of helping your borrower.....or is it helping yourself? The good appraisers I know would hang up on you if you called shopping value. One, bc it's legally irresponsible to give an oral number as that is an appraisal and two, bc we'd assume you are shady and would not care about us, the borrower, or investors which is pretty much what you're saying. If this is standard practice in CA then I can definitely see why CA is one of the nation leaders in REO property and devaluation. I don't like HVCC but it's times like these that I see it's need. It should also be pointed out that your comment "an appraisal is just an opinion" is insulting to our industry.

TheFyouSay: (October 14, 2009 6:01pm)

@The Puncher.. That a boy! I had one say that a beach view was worth the same as a canyon/area view when it came to value. Wouldn't say anything but "They both have nice views" when I asked him about it. Then told me about how he cant feed his family on 10 appraisals a week. I asked him why he didn't do FHA and he said that it took too much time to get qualified. Another lazy, ignorant overpaid appraiser. Next time you make it down to San Diego drop me a line, I will give you his name and you can take a swing at him for me!!

GDI: (October 14, 2009 5:59pm)

Frank and Brian, I think this site has reached its peak for appraisers, its obvious that the appraisers are going to be bullied here for trying to help. For this, the appraisers should go to other web sites about appraising. I know go f myself and whatever, I get it. It is just sad because you guys came off as professionals with insight and fareness, who also new when to laugh, but it has turned pretty ugly and I think you might of lost a few appraisers. I know your fans don't care, but I thought this place had some level of professional courtesy, guess I was wrong, good luck to you both.

Starving Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 5:54pm)

Chicken fight, yada, yada, yada, irrelevant. GDI, good post. Had one a few months back, sale price $360K & nothing in the subd EVER sold for more than $320K even when new. Agent was screaming... they'd comp it to sales 2-3 miles away on a golf course when there were plenty of sales in the subd. that had no golf course. Questioned my sf based on FHA 5' height rule, sd comps I'd used had all the upstairs counted even if less than 5'....not my problem. Provided me another appraiser's remarks @ 1 of the comps where he stated he used the PLANS & SPECS (provided by an agent/developer) on a house that was 3 yrs old!!! He didn't even measure it. Thought subject's salt water pool was worth way more than the pools of 2 of the comps. They didn't have a leg to stand on and the deal fell through, but my clients was grateful. We're not talking @ a couple thousand $$$, especially if it's within the range of value/price per sf.

The puncher : (October 14, 2009 5:54pm)

I punched an appraiser in the face last week because he messed my deal up, i googled his name from the report and then drove to his office and then punched him nicely. He cried like a baby like most of you on these boards. I hope i get to punch a few more soon.

James the Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 5:44pm)

TheFyouSay - gee, can you put 10 words together without using one that is not needed, I think not. I never complain and I dod my job as an appraiser just fine, may even be in the top 10 in the grand state of California. You must be a broker or realtor that had a deal go bad, well we all have them, can't say I'm sorry

Lender: (October 14, 2009 5:42pm)

Frank....Although it took time on the Madoff cartoon and it was somewhat clever I personally found it to be a little irrelevant to us all at this time. Sorry, I love the show and the info it provides, but Madoff is in jail now where he belongs....Not on the video you provide. Just my thoughts. Keep up the good work though.

James the Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 5:37pm)

Frank, I want a Buzzzz, pass me a beer too, I upset Frank looks like, he needs some time with an appraiser, I will be glad to school him

TheFyouSay: (October 14, 2009 5:36pm)

You appraiser cry babies need to shut the F&*k up already. You wine and B1tch about not making enough money, complain about having to get more education, complain about having to get a higher level of certification and then you b1tch about having to do your jobs? Go f yerselves.

Frank with a Buzzz....: (October 14, 2009 5:26pm)

Okay... enough about the appraisal stuff... I think the chicken fight with Madoff was great.. come on.. that took some time, so what do you think about it? Seriously?

Lender: (October 14, 2009 5:15pm)

Starving Appraiser....It's about time something of value came from you. You're 1 out of 17.639 though. But, you should still quit while you're on the longest streak of your life.

James the Appraiser and Your Teacher: (October 14, 2009 4:57pm)

brian tbws - it is clear you need to sit down with an appraiser for a week and learn a bit of what we do

GDI: (October 14, 2009 4:48pm)

Brian, I do not think anyone is talking about a few thousand dollars. In the appraisers world, we are asked for comp checks every day from a LO looking for 250K in a neighborhood that has never sold above 200K. First appraiser to get close to 250K gets the job and paid. I am being completely honest that I have never had someone come back on an appraisal for 2-3 thousand dollars short, there is always a range. Every appraiser here will tell you of the crackpot looking for any way to make a 200k home look like a 250K on paper. There is a big difference in what is being said now and generalized before, maybe just a simple misunderstanding, but most of us, like all professions, are honest and when the wording comes out loose, we try to defend what is right. Oh, and asking about interest rates does not violate any law, comp searches violate USPAP(if you do them or not is not the point). working within the rules that govern you do not mean we hide behind USPAP. Thats were this went bad fast, ignorance and lack of education, just my 2 cents.

James the Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 4:48pm)

Starving Appraiser - Right You Are, I live in Shasta County a real Retiremnet area and see that all the time. I always get hit by lender when the sales price is $225,000 and my appraisls is $310,000. All I can do is say, HA, Look at the sale prices of the comparable around it. I am completing a report right now and I have 7 sales, 2 pendings and 2 listings, I still can't get down to the sales price even if I use the lowest of all of them. So you comment is RIGHT ON THE MONEY and the contract price means NOTHING

Starving Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 4:44pm)

James, excellent point. And in reverse, when the same house sells for $150-$200K less than yours, because grandma/grandpa have been placed in a nursing home & the out-of-state heirs just want to get it all settled, then that means it's only worth the contract price. No One will like it when it's played out in reverse ....

James the Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 4:33pm)

brian tbws - so I take it by saying nothing that you agree that the home downthe street was worth $700,000 as they has a sales contract that stated it was, RIGHT, glad to see you understand value

Starving Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 4:32pm)

Brian, the contract is only one possible indication of value and the property can not be it's own comp since the deal hasn't closed.

OhioGuy: (October 14, 2009 4:30pm)

Then I commend you brian. The reason I say is b/c I have just as many lender and or realtor friends as I do appraiser friends. Most of the lenders I know use good/honest appraiser, except when there is no way he can see a value. Then, they "shop" a little. More than like asking appraisers who are a little less conservative. It is their opinion, and it may be less conservative, but you guys know what your looking for, a deal to work with the liability on somebody else. Im not accusing you of being dirty, but when an appraisal is defined as an opinion of value, as you stated, this would have to include a pre-comp check. And people who pay for the insurance to protect their liability, should be financially rewarded for the opinion.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 4:25pm)

Former Appraiser....I've completed 0 mortgages without an appraisal. I see your point.

SCRREA: (October 14, 2009 4:23pm)

To all: The sky really is falling. Those with heads in a dark place, just do not know it!

brian tbws: (October 14, 2009 4:21pm)

Ohio Guy. I have no idea what your talking about with "stretcher" appraisers. I have never had asked for a favor on an appraisal and never would. I will gladly have ANYONE go back and look at the integrity of every appraisal done on all my files. PERIOD. My defaults are the result of a lot of things but I'd bet you money you'd be hard pressed to put one on my appraiser. The guys I've worked with over the past 15 years are ethical and damm good appraisers. They deserve consideration for their body of work, not blind contempt from people that dont know better. By the way. What about the Bernie Madoff Chicken fight on the daily. Nobody seems to care about the best part of the show.

James the Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 4:21pm)

A good appraiser should not use the contract price in any way when looking for comparables. Just as the home down the street sold for $700,000 3 weeks after I purchased mine for $415,000 (both 3 years old) does not mean the buyers got a fair deal. They came from out of the area with loads of cash and did no reseach, and the agent did not help them, just himself. They had a sales contract for the $700,000 and put $500,000, does the contract mean the house was worth $700,000, well by your terms it does, HA

Former Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 4:17pm)

Lender, how many deals do you complete without an appraisal? Give me an honest ratio.

Just Wondering: (October 14, 2009 4:16pm)

I'm referring to this: Appraiserman says: (Oct 14, 2009 11:53am) "Lender, you are a piece of crap as well. I have been here for over 20 years and I'm not going anywhere. I sold over $3M worth of Real Estate this year as well. I don't live my life by putting people in mortgages they can't afford and screwing them on the backside with yield spread. there are good and bad in every profession and you're and example of the bad."

brian tbws: (October 14, 2009 4:14pm)

I say the value has been determined by the sales contract. So at that point the contract becomes the best comp for value. If keeping contracts away from appraisers is going to help objectivity then... ok. My concern is appraisers are being influenced negatively by other entities at this point. So I don't think that will help the cause.

OhioGuy: (October 14, 2009 4:14pm)

Brian, I'm sure those people who have foreclosed b/c of your deal and you seeking out your "stretcher" appraiser, would have something different to say today than the day they moved in. State tomorrow in your video that you will start paying for "appraisals", which is defined by law as "opinion of value" - this would include a pre-determined value. I think a good fee for pre-comps would be $250. If you read USPAP, an opinion from an appraiser can be a simple as a verbal statement. So start paying up. Sorry, those are the rules, it is what it is, and everyone has to live by them. Stop putting others at risk with your non-USPAP compliant behavior.

James the Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 4:08pm)

brian tbws - HA, what do you think about my idea of NOT giving the appraiser a copy of the sales contract, come on, first time Lendr and I have seen eye to eye all day

Lender: (October 14, 2009 4:05pm)

Former Appraiser must be Starving Appraisers twin. There is no way you can be this stupid. If you really think appraisers are the "Must" in each transaction, then how does something close once your appraisal is chopped to pieces and reduced. The lender and Realtor (After your done) renegotiate a corrected sales price agreed by all. There is so much more going on behind the scenes that you can't see in your isolated environment. As long as you think you're the man in your own world I guess it's fine..But I need to tell you that you are just a piece of the puzzle.

brian tbws: (October 14, 2009 4:00pm)

As I said "if 2 appraisers can have different yet honest opinions of value" than I have an obligation to my client and my referral partner to see if the deals out there. Seriously should I say, "no, your 2 grand off on value but I bet if you go 2 cubicles down Dave's got an appraiser that see's it differently." That makes no sense. We're all in sales and our product is ourselves along with our service. If your honest, hardworking, and ethical than it's all gonna work out. HVCC strip's the very fabric of quality that our collective industry has offered over the past ummmteen years. We were give a bunch of bad loans to sell by wall street and people bought and sold them in droves. Thats our problem and there's plenty of blame to go around. Hard work and competition is always a good thing. Again if our regulatory bodies just do their job it will all work out. Like Linda from the post earlier said. Get back to the basics. By the way, GREAT POST LINDA!!! if we all only had your clarity.

Lost on your commnets: (October 14, 2009 3:57pm)

Just Wondering - can you expand on this, you clearly left to much out for us to follow

Former Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 3:56pm)

If USPAP was enforced on everyone adn not the appraiser, there would be no comp shopping. Unfortunately only the honest appraiser abides by the "pre-determined" rules. These guys on the video are straight up comp-shoppers and a copy of this video should be sent the law-makers so they can see the attitudes of people like this who created this stir a;ing with many others. HVCC eliminated guys like you, but unfortunately their set of rules is another issue. I've said it before, appraisers your not getting paid anyways-so stop working for a couple of weeks and get your foothold back. Realtors, LO's, or even the mighty banks can't survive without you. You are the "must" in this transaction, act like it.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 3:55pm)

James the Appraiser. I think you are right on! I wondered the same thing myself. If the appraiser didn't know the sales price then there is no desirable value to hit, and no one can complain if it doesn't make it, as long as it's appraised correctly. I defiitely would trust my guys price everytime and I could put him back to regular work. It might be too simple to implement though with this Congress. We need tougher standards to "Protect the Consumer" apparently. Great Idea though! I know you are not the Starving Appraiser.

Just Wondering: (October 14, 2009 3:49pm)

I'm a Realtor who has done a moderate amount of sales this year. And I don't have time to think. I just wonder how someone who sold $3M in real estate has time to do such time-consuming appraisals??????

James the Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 3:49pm)

As an Appraiser I have always wanted to know why we get to see the SALES CONTRACT. If you want a real opinon of value let us do the report without seeing the sales contract. 98% of appraiser will start a search for comparables in the subject area and circle the sales that are within 10% of the sales price. Then they weed out the not so similar sales and use the highest of the rest, this almost grants and value of the sales price or higher. So why do we get to see the sales contract again? Let the UNDERWRITER take the value of the appraisal and compare it to the value in the sales contract, OOOO I forgot, the UNDERWITER only knows how to go down his check list and see if all the right boxes are checked on the appraisal, lol

Welcome Home: (October 14, 2009 3:47pm)

Just thought you all might be interested in viewing this unbelievable UTube Video clip about the accountability of the Federal Reserve losses. http://dailybail.com/home/there-are-no-words-to-describe-the-following-part-ii.html And we wonder why we are in deep dodo!

More work less pay, Obama thank your mama.: (October 14, 2009 3:47pm)

Who's willing to start paying for "an opinion of value" or in other words a comp check. Read USPAP, right now it's only the appraisers that have to live by it.

Starving Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 3:47pm)

Brian, not seeing how your post supports the video remark "IF THE APPRAISER CAN'T HIT VALUE, I GET ANOTHER OPINION" and don't recall any pre & post HVCC practices mentioned in the video. Although I did have issues viewing it. Anyone else (other than Lender) share this thought? Again, multiple appraisals should NOT be a result of a defendable value, even if it is low. Substandard, error riddle reports would justify a second regardless of value.

EdC: (October 14, 2009 3:46pm)

Brian - good post and I'm with you on it. Some appraisers seem to think they're better than everybody else when it's obvious they're not. I don't get the self-righteous attitude, personally, only those that let their names out so all brokers would know they do free comp checks would be upset that all their work didn't get them any jobs. Idiots lol. They brought it on themselves and then they whine about it later. Hardly professional or grown up. Sorry you saw the worst of the profession. There's bad apples in every barrel. Enforcement of existing regulations is all that's needed. Where's the IVPI? It doesn't exist because they don't care about enforcement. Banks need to have some skin in the game so they can re-learn risk evaluation.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 3:45pm)

Starving Appraiser, I'm not anti-appraiser, so don't make things up to find help for yourself. I actually hope you get some work, or at least a paid comp check to help yourself out. A wise man once said "If you find yourself in a hole, quit digging." I hope you can find some placement in that statement. Translation: Quit trying to be an appraiser, no one is calling you. Time to change industries so you can eat.

BIG AL: (October 14, 2009 3:44pm)

Yes I gave my clients a heads up on value, so there clients wouldn't have to pay for appraisal that didn't go thru. Isn't the consumer the one that needs protection. I would say 80% of properties I looked up were not close and I didn't do them. I was born and raised in So Cal. I know every offramp, nook and crany of most cities. If I went out and things wern't what they were supposed to be, I'd stop. No need to make up anything, license was more important and my clients new that and depended on my expertise. They also didn't want to get involved in fraud. Just play by the rules. If an appraiser at an auction can give a range, then why can't we?

Starving Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 3:41pm)

Any VA appraisers out there? Wondering what kind of volume you're getting? Just got approved and am hoping it will increase my business maybe double it. Lender PLEASE, refrain from commenting on something you know absolutely nothing about, as in my quality of work. OH BUT you aren't able to do that are you?

EdC: (October 14, 2009 3:35pm)

It doesn't matter cluelessdad. Only the banks could fund those loans. It was up to the banks to assess their risks. They said there were no risks, values are always going to go up. Wrong. The banks are the only ones with the funds to risk. Just because I have a good deal on a car doesn't mean you have to buy it. The banks took each and every crazy deal they or others could dream up and funded them. Why? For 60 to 1 leverage for more CDO's and MBS's. The ones with the money are the only ones that could make it happen the way it did. Nothing fueled it more than the banks greed. If others got rich off the banks greed, then they're just as culpable. But since too big to fail is too big to bankrupt or prosecute, they all get away scott free. It sucks and the consumer and taxpayers are paying dearly for a continuation of the greed and corruption.

Starving Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 3:30pm)

ANTI- no need to apologize to me...been down this road with L before and find it very entertaining to see someone display their true self such as he does. There's 3 of us that are all the same person now, must be our multiple personality disorder(s) showing. He's been on this "anti-appraiser" rant before and amazingly it's still not winning him any points...who'd a thunk it. He also previously made reference to having a "fat ass" when he bragged @ his possessions.

brian tbws: (October 14, 2009 3:30pm)

I've got to say I'm a little shocked by some of your comments. Our contention is; your average appraiser is going to give you an honest opinion of value and that competing for your clients business is healthy. Realtors, lenders, account reps, and yes even appraisers have and should be held by this standard. When properly enforced by their respective regulatory agencies (that are already in place) the client will benefit by getting the best and in most cases cost effective service. HVCC assumes the easily corruptable appraiser will lie about value if they have any discourse with a lender. Isnt that offensive to you? Further, HVCC completely eliminates your ability to work harder and better to achieve above a more lazy appraiser. That contradicts everything our country is founded on. So our story was an assault on the assumptions HVCC makes and yet many of you seem to think we're wrong. Frank and I believe hard work by honest appraisers benefits everyone and thats the goal we should work toward.

Appraiser 2: (October 14, 2009 3:29pm)

I thought you guys were pretty smart until I watched your opnion on "comp shopping" and how you are in favor of it, now I realize that you two are just a couple of typical knucklehead realtors. Your right, appraisers get paid for their opinion - so I say If you want to start shopping for values, start paying for those pre-determined value opnions, we'll see how long YOUR current opinion last. It gets old being beat up all day asked for opinions without reward. I now think that the gossip queen realtors are in equal fault as the slimeball brokers.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 3:28pm)

The Account Executives at the banks were begging me and every other LO for any loans that fit their loose parameters. I have emails from AE's telling me how to lie to get a deal thru. No mortgage originator (Broker) could approve a file themselves, it had to go thru a bank underwriter, who was pushed to get as many approvals as possible so they could be packaged up and sold off as CDO's. It's Wall Street as much as the banks who funded them, they knew what they had. What did we expect. I remember saying to myself "This is so crazy." I once had a part time paperboy who was 19 years old come in to see me to get a $670,000 house. I couldn't believe it. Of course I passed, which is why I'm still licensed, but the Realtor found an LO who packaged it and got it done. It started at Wall Street and went downhill from there.....Starving Appraiser still sucks at his job.

James the Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 3:27pm)

Come On, lets get back to stupid Stuff, like the crap that Lender has to say, if he stops now I may just complete this report and then I will only have 2 left to do on Thursday plus the Friday inspection. Yes, I am an appraiser doing work, had to take a reduced fee, down from $350 to $325 for this one, but ha, my little girl is expecting to get her permit to drive and daddy needs the gas money. SO lets here what more stupid things LENDER has to say

Clulessdad: (October 14, 2009 3:25pm)

EDC-yes, but there was a lot of fraud and greed at all levels that helped fuel it. Brokers, Bank LO's, Ditech LO's, appraisers, agents, and yes the consumer. And there is one more. No one mentions the AE's at the lenders that "greased the wheels." I know of a couple that made over $1mm/yr over a couple of years.

EdC: (October 14, 2009 3:21pm)

Only the banks could write and fund any crazy loans they wanted. No one else could do it.

EdC: (October 14, 2009 3:18pm)

Helping hand - sorry, way off base there. It was enitely the banks fault. They shirked their due diligence on the risks they were taking and encouraging risk through all their outlets. It was entirely the banks fault. Look at amc's. There is again no risk of buybacks in the loans they write - a continuation of the policy that got us bankrupt to begin with. Sorry, not buying it. It was ONLY the banks reckless policies and risk taking that got us here.

Lender married to Realtor good friends w/ Appraisers: (October 14, 2009 3:04pm)

I have stopped reading the comments for about 3 months now, because very little productive was being posted. I was reading through comments hoping to get some help, insight and support, that wasn't happening, so I wasn't wasting my time reading more of the discouraging stuff I can get every where else. I read today and found out that still very little productive is being posted. Mud slinging and name calling is for little children. Knock it off. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all and get over yourself...we have different opinions, but honestly, if you think "it's all XYZ groups fault" we're in this mess you are sadly out of touch. Quite frankly there isn't an industry involved in this crisis that didn't have a helping hand - that's not to say as individuals we are to blame, but as industries we all helped. Ok, now to take my own advice...

ANTILENDER: (October 14, 2009 3:02pm)

Lender, sorry starving appraiser, this idiot thinks I am you and I do not get any credit for showing what a piece of crap he is. If you are out there, I did not mean to get him on you, He really is easily confused. I am antilender because you are a horrible human being. I would rather you spew your venom and let people see who you really are. You hide behind a name and ruin your profession for so many others. I truly feel sorry for you, but know the truth more than 3 people despise what you are and what you stand for. you are pathetic and little, goodbye.

Starving Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 3:01pm)

10)NUTS(at least 3 times)...11)BUTT NUTT...?not familiar with that one, is it a gay thing?...12)MORON(at least 3 times)...13)RETARDS...14)STUPID...15)ENCOURAGING SUICIDE....REALLY, Frank may think you're crossing the line with that one.>>> You'd be the one to know when Oprah's on since you previously bragged @ your new furniture and BIG (compensating for something) SCREEN TV. No TV in my office, don't need it with entertainment like you available on the web. BTW (again, that's By The Way) only a small % of time is spent in the field. Much more time at the desk doing the research and putting together a credible report, but you apparently aren't familiar with credible reports. Next, I'm taking on your good spelling skills(or lack there of) .....

James the Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 2:52pm)

LENDER CLAIMS - "I'm really not a self righteous person" AND "I have had no issues with appraisers in my professional life" ARE YOU KIDDING ME? ROFL

Peacekeeper: (October 14, 2009 2:49pm)

Can't we all just get along? I am a licensed Realtor, licensed mortgage broker, and I have a very good relationship with my appraiser. I see both sides to the argument. But at the end of the day, it ultimately is about what is best for the consumer. Without them, we are all jobless and homeless! I think everyone is losing focus of what our bread and butter is truly derived from. We are all so worried about our own fees and our own commissions....money we wouldn't have without the consumers. What is best for them? Nobody is asking that question.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 2:46pm)

Starving Appraiser...Thanks for trying the comedy in your rhetort this time. That was so lame that I won't ask again. I had to read it twice just to see how much of a loser you really are. I think you should hang yourself with your tape measure. At least it would get used for something.

ANTILENDER: (October 14, 2009 2:43pm)

lender, I am not sure of the other two names I am not either of them, but I know that lots of people think you are a tard and a bully, You might use your own advice and change your name from lender to Osama bin lender, I think you'll get more people to like you. The site is not for pulling peoples chains, hurting others is pathetic. It for exchanging ideas, but I gues when you have none, insults sre the only way to go to get your voice hears. You are right, you are not worth it, I just hate haters like you.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 2:38pm)

I'm really not a self righteous person. I just notice a few of these appraisers on this sight offer unsubstantiated claims about lenders and processes lenders take to get business. I have had no issues with appraisers in my professional life, but this website has a few absolute retards on it (Although I suspect it's the same person using Starving Apprasier, Appraiserman and Antilender). No 3 people can be this stupid at the same time. I keep pulling your chain moron and you keep biting, it's how I know it's you. It's no wonder you're still at home reading this. Quit appraising finally, no one calls you anyways, and no one wants to. You're all alone and no one likes you. LOL

GDI: (October 14, 2009 2:34pm)

Lender: Sorry you are confused. I'll say this slow, I did not say child I said daughter, just like you did. I know it must be tough to keep up with the adults, but try, so you do not fall behind. You have me confused with someone else that despises you too, well, come to think about it, its alot of people out there. Try to get you facts straight, your IQ is showing!

Starving Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 2:33pm)

Lender, you claim I made a mild insult when I only stated the truth. Following are a number of the nasty names/remarks you've used just today....1) MORON...2)SNOTTY NOSED COMPLAINERS...3)NO BRAINS...4)WORTHLESS...5)FRUITCAKE...6)JERKOFF...7)NUTS(used at least twice)...8)ASS...9)WHINING/COMPLAINING APPRAISERS. Those would definitely be considered insults and for the most part not of a mild nature. But keep it up, it shows us all your true colors. OH, BTW (that's By The Way) ... are ya gonna wear your tights and cape when you do your electro shimmy & blunt force trauma break dance???

James the Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 2:32pm)

Sorry, I am laughing so hard at all the crap that I keep falling out of my chair and it is making it hard to complete this appraisal today, good thing the due date is Thursday. You all have some reason why the other guy is wrong, but you never cross the line, HA BULL

Slim Shady: (October 14, 2009 2:32pm)

My what big teeth you have grandma! There is a whole lot of huff and puff going on this site today for something that is old news. It's what mortgage brokers do, always have and always will, what's the big deal? I rarely ever did comp checks, always just said no and moved on, but I always had a lot of work in the pipe-line and made a good living until mortgage brokers were taken out of the process. Laws were already in the books that alowed lenders to use AMC's, HVCC just gave them a steady green light since they were now in total control and without some outside competition to the lender (such as a mortgage broker) it will never change. Many mortgage bokers have always been the wolf in grandma's clothes but the wolf could never eat without the appraiser and quite frankly we're both getting pretty hungry right now.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 2:26pm)

GDI, you're the one who says the daughter is a child, she's 33 years old moron. Get your mind out of the gutter. You're disgusting to me.

SCRREA: (October 14, 2009 2:24pm)

It is clear that everone has their side to push. Maybe Loan Officers don't know that appraisers have to pay for lots of education to get that. Then we have to keep paying for CE.....then we have to pay for software.....then we have to pay for RE fees....then we have to pay MLS fees. And then you expect us to do research at no charge. So why don't Loan Officers just pay for the MLS and do their own research? Just wondering. Any Loan Officer answer that? Could it be that a certain level of skill is involved in comp research? Could it be the Loan Officers think it is no big deal to do research? Don't know what other people think, I only know what they say.

ANTILENDER: (October 14, 2009 2:24pm)

Lender, thanks for proving the point everyone is making about you. Butt Nut, really??? can you say fixated on tea bags and butts

EdC: (October 14, 2009 2:23pm)

You guys still don't get it. It's the banks fault not our fault. Stop ripping each other. I agree with much of what lender has said and that teabag comment of his is being taken out of context. Grow up. Realize how powerless you are alone. Hiding behind a self-righteous attitude isn't going to change a thing.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 2:19pm)

Still not out in the field Starving Appraiser? Are you doing free comp checks or something all day? Oprah's coming on, better speed this up so you don't miss todays episode. Give this a try someday...Make a sales call. Good luck butt nut.

EdC: (October 14, 2009 2:15pm)

HHREP: You're a funny guy, quite amusing. 20 years real experience, not 1 year 20 times. Sorry bud, fear tactics don't work on me. I'm starting to suspect that banks and/or appraisal organizations are trying to keep us disparate.. ie.. brokers and appraisers. Keep us at each others throats so we can never get together on anything. Mr $3 million in real estate sales and does appraisals too seems to change their position too readily for my comfort. My best responder seems to think spreading fear works better than an intelligent response. Maybe I'm just being paranoid lol. Did you guys know that an AI rep showed up at the Ct meeting on legislation stating that only the appraiser could be paid for the appraisal and they protested saying that the legislation could get rid of amc's? It didn't pass because of the AI. It's not paranoid if they really are after you. ;^)

GDI: (October 14, 2009 2:15pm)

Lender, shut the hell up. Do you read what you write, you must be what, 16 years old. Spewing things like teabagging someones daughter cause you can not make a decent arguement. I am telling you, you sound like a fool. Frank and Brian should be shaking thier heads in disgust. You are the reason for the HVCC and every comment you make enforces it. Hell, I am about to change my mind on it cause it needs to rid the world of people like you. Frank, take a good look at what you do (I know you do it without the intetion of causing damage) but put the same power in this guys hands. You may understand the anger of all the appraisers. Its not so much you, its guys like this that shred our professions. He is like having the child sex offender in your neighborhood. Sorry, but its the truth.

Starving Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 2:14pm)

Lender, you are FREAKING HILARIOUS!!!! The only other name I've ever used is the captcha(sp?) phrase when the site was bouncing & I entered it in the wrong spot. I apparently don't go "too far" since I'm still posting here. >>>APPRAISERMAN<<< what'd you think @ L's 100% knowing of all things??? Just makes me laugh. Shows his lack of knowledge when he claims to be 100% on something he couldn't possibly know unless he's running this site and tracking ip addresses. ROTFLMAO!!!! ... Lender, in case you don't know that's Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off!!!

Lender: (October 14, 2009 2:12pm)

HHREP...Comp checks are a name used by folks like you. As a lender, I can call my appraiser to give me a rough idea of a value. Granted, he and I both know condition, upgrades, etc dictate the value 100% better, but if a client on a refi says "I have no idea what it's worth" having an appraiser ball park it really helps. If this is illegal stick me in jail. If you think I'm wrong for asking my appraiser to ballpark a value for me prior to spending 2 hours doing an application with a client you're nuts. A comp check should really be called "A Rough Idea." We all know the value can change upon inspection, so get over it. It takes my appraiser 5 minutes. If he asked to be paid for it I would, but he doesn't and he gets all the business (FHA) I can send for his help. I also never question his values. Get off your high horse.

WornOutAppraiser: (October 14, 2009 2:05pm)

First off - i haven't looked at any blogs today so perhaps someone has covered this - but here goes - Frank & Brian, I love ur videos and have frequently blogged but i have to say I am amazed at ur comments today - as an appraiser I CANNOT GIVE ANYONE A VALUE who is "shopping" for values, as it in itself sonstitutes an appraisal by law - u guys should know this. And don't play innocent, for years brokers, lenders and the like have been strong-arming appraisers for this not to get a fair market value but to get an idiot appraiser from outside his/her geographic area to come-up with a ridiculously high number then hold his feet to the fire on iy - this pracice by brokers and appraisers has been a MAJOR cause of over-valuation in the industry. Now don't get me wrong I am not an HVCC fan AT ALL there are soooooo many problems with it i can't begin to even list them here - but for years i have had brokers calling me trying to get $50k more on a property than what it is worth and when i tell them that i have to inspect the property before i can even determine a fair market value they hang-up and dial the next guy until they find some joker who shouldn't even be licensed who will give them their value. I do a lot of appraisal reviews and on the vast majority of these things it was an appraiser from out of the area, lacking the proper data and geographic competence to complete the assignment to begin with that led to a fraudulent or extremely misleading report. the problem is now agents actually have to do some homework on lsiting properties right and stop playing games with high offers in the hopes the bank will accept it and the appraisal will come in low so they can make a counter offer - shame on you guys today.

HHREP: (October 14, 2009 2:03pm)

EdC. Gotta tell you, you lost me on the NYA NYA NYA arguement. If you do not know how easy it is to catch you on a comp check, well, I will let it go at that. I worked with the Div of Lic on an appraiser who was doing comp checks, once they have you, all your little kid knowledge of "phone recording" makes you sound like a fool. Once you are in their crosshairs, they just build the case against you. Granted I do not think that what you do, if predetermined values is all you do, will send the FBI out. But you have no clue as to the power and authority they have. By the way, I have worked a legal shops for 14 years in two states and gave up comp searches after the first few years. My clients did not have a problem with that. They always knew they got a professional, well supported report. Its a shame you need to do "free" work to stay in the biz. No offense, you are just naive and do not tout God and morals, makes you sound Crazy or are you?

Lender: (October 14, 2009 2:02pm)

Starving Appraiser, you have been under the name of Appraiserman today. I 100% know you go under a different name when you rant, then come back with this name once you've gone too far again. You were 100% Appraiserman today. Since you still can't think up a comical or educated rhetort for me you needed to change names and change it up by doing mild insults. As a lender I have a reason for being at my desk, but since you are an appraiser shouldn't you be in the field? When you are you going to quit anyways? Does the sky need to fall for you to get it? Shouldn't you try to earn a living yet? You're family needs you to move on.

Starving Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 1:57pm)

BOBBI - to stop the update notices, uncheck the box below the nickname field. To stop the daily morning e-mails providing a link to the video, just piss off Frank and they'll stop. At least they did for me.

majhuff: (October 14, 2009 1:56pm)

I agree in this market I would expect appraisers to have different values on the same property. Ex If any appraiser gives more weight to REO/Short sales a value could be lower, than say an appraisal where the apprasier used only regular closed sales. Use as many appraisal as you want just pay up.

Starving Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 1:53pm)

DANG - this is REALLY explosive today ... everybody calling everybody names and if it's the same one from weeks back, Lenders' at it again, riling up the appraiser with his nasty remarks. FINALLY got to see bits & pieces of the video and the problem is Frank stated "IF THE APPRAISER COULDN'T HIT VALUE" ... he didn't say the quality of the report was questionable or substandard .... THAT'S LOOKING FOR A NUMBER HITTER!!! AND IT'S WRONG!!! 1004 requires contract data in 2 places at least, that's why appraisers are required to review the contract. Someone have those fields removed, less work for me. Seems like many others are having issues with the tbws upgrades with so many duplicate post. Can't be sending the same thing that many times.

EdC: (October 14, 2009 1:50pm)

HHREP: There is no dilemma as that portion of USPAP is unenforceable. Make it enforceable and I'm all for it. Don't try to foist on me unenforceable regulations like they came down from Mt Sinai. I have a moral obligation to my God only and I live and work by my conscience. Sorry if you have a problem with that. Ohh, btw, I'm very due diligent on how and if I want to bother running a comp check. No one is going to lose anything!! as my disclaimer is always "it could be different if I actually see the home". Anyway, try and prove I did a comp check. You can't. It's against the law to record a phone conversation here without the consent of both parties. Nya nya nyaaaa. Yes, I violate USPAP. If you work for an amc you are also violating USPAP. Why is that of no concern?

James the Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 1:47pm)

Valueboy - Well Said

Clulessdad: (October 14, 2009 1:46pm)

Central Valley-I agree with your feelings about knowing each other's areas. I just wish there was ONE central database where every recorded transaction was published with all the detail necessary to evaulate properties. I am a broker and don't have access to MLS. I wish that every appraiser had access to that database. Talk to multiple appraisers and you will find that not every appraiser has the same info. And that is why I talk to multiple appraisers, not about their opinions, but what facts (sales) they can find. Merge it all together with MLS listing sheets and you can see what the recent sales are in an area, and what the condition or selling points are on a particular sale. It doesn't take a rocket scientist LO to come up with a range and get a feeling of whether a deal can work. Every LO should want the facts, not the opinions, otherwise how can you originate a loan? Do some work for your commission! Shop for a value? Are you crazy Frank? I want a defensible value, becuase it does no one any good to have the value cut later by an AVM or a desk review or field review. Frank-shopping for a value is not right. Shop for a local appraiser because of his knowledge and experience. Find the one who can do the best job of providing a defensible value. And don't negotiate their fees. To do that undermines any chance you have that the appraiser will shortcut that appraisal. And a quality appraisal with the ability to communicate with the appraiser is what HVCC has taken away.

CA Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 1:45pm)

The worst thing about the HVCC for the appraiser is that it makes it very difficult to procure new business. It takes the entrepreneurship out of the appraisal business and forces us to work for AMCs at a reduced rate. Pre-HVCC the only way to procure new business was to provide a market analysis ("Comp Check") to our clients. Technically a comp check is a violation of USPAP if an appraisal is completed on the "Comped" property. The disaster in the national housing market was not caused by comp checks. The disaster was created by the loan programs offered to the consumer. The ease of credit created a strong demand for homes thus driving up prices. This is simple economics and this market driving force was reported by appraisers in their reports as an Opinion of value derived from market analytics. Lenders wanted "High" appraisals so that they could fund more loans and make larger profits on the volume. The lenders did not care about the quality or validity of the appraisals because the funded loans were being sold off and the lender did not have to take responsibility for the loan. Folks, this is a "Top Down" problem not a "Bottom Up" problem as they will have the public believe. It is not the Appraisers or Brokers fault. It is the lenders fault. Quality Control in the appraisal process at the lender level is the solution. HVCC and limitation of the Brokers involvement in the loan process is not.

Clulessdad: (October 14, 2009 1:44pm)

Central Valley-I agree with your feelings about knowing each other's areas. I just wish there was ONE central database where every recorded transaction was published with all the detail necessary to evaulate properties. And I wish that every appraiser had access to that database. Talk to multiple appraisers and you will find that not every appraiser has the same info. And that is why I talk to multiple appraisers, not about their opinions, but what facts (sales) they can find. Merge it all together with MLS listing sheets and you can see what the recent sales are in an area, and what the condition or selling points are on a particular sale. It doesn't take a rocket scientist LO to come up with a range and get a feeling of whether a deal can work. Every LO should want the facts, not the opinions, otherwise how can you originate a loan? Do some work for your commission! Shop for a value? Are you crazy Frank? I want a defensible value, becuase it does no one any good to have the value cut later by an AVM or a desk review or field review. Frank-shopping for a value is not right. Shop for a local appraiser because of his knowledge and experience. Find the one who can do the best job of providing a defensible value. And don't negotiate their fees. To do that undermines any chance you have that the appraiser will shortcut that appraisal. And a quality appraisal with the ability to communicate with the appraiser is what HVCC has taken away.

Valueboy: (October 14, 2009 1:39pm)

Frank and Brian, I love you guys but did I really hear you say it was your "duty" to find another appraiser that could hit the value? If a buyer gets talked into a purchase price of $600,000 and I'm your best, most trusted and most competent appraiser you've worked with for years, and I tell you the home is only $500,000, would you really want your client to forge ahead and buy that house at $600,000 just to make a commision? Lets all have some morals/ethics in our job. And please, before I hear the complaints, I'm not some lowball appraiser who loves HVCC. In fact I'm the guy who screams about the "AMC Mentallity" of doing the least amount of work and going as low as possible on values. Nonetheless, here's some words of wisedom: There isn't a single appraisal or loan deal that will make your career, but there is a single appraial or loan deal that will "break your career". (Where have I heard that?) Now go out there and do your absolute very best job.

HHREP: (October 14, 2009 1:36pm)

EdC, I used to see your comments and thought you were level headed, you proved yourself wrong. I tried to point out the dilemna of the appraiser in Franks situation, not the answer to all the problems. You know you violated USPAP and so does every appraiser here. You will do as much damage to a owner needing a loan so he does not foreclose and you fail to inspect the property and kill the deal on a comp check. So he loses his house and you saved him a couple hundred bucks. So you have never comped a house and came in for more thqan the comp check, because when you got out there, things changed like, wrong reocrd information, view, condition, etc. Its a point to be made, like it or not, if you got caught its your ass, you would sing a different tune. I don't like the rules either, but jumping down my throat cause you violate them and convince yourself your the better humana being, I don't think so.

EdC: (October 14, 2009 1:35pm)

Ok, so some brokers called till they found the worst appraiser they could find that would hit the value because no one else would hire them. The only reason that proliferated is that there were no underwriting guidelines with the bank and the poor quality appraisal went through due to a decided lack of risk evaluation. Is it the brokers fault? Is it the appraisers fault? No. It's the banks fault. Now, we have amc's that purposely seek out the least qualified that will work for their burger king wages and accept tons of liability - in otherwords, the stupidest appraisers. Now they are the majority and rave about how great amc's are. We, as professional appraisers, have no choices in the matter except to not work for less than we're worth. Hmm, work for brokers where the majority seek good quality and competence and pay for it or amc's that only seek low fees. Hard choice - NOT! It's true that in both our professions we're being punished for the transgressions of the few. We're in this together. Don't forget that. No ones a saint and those that claim to be are lying and poor spellers.

James the Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 1:34pm)

MoneyNFLA - Interesting how the second appraiser HIT the sales value. As an appraiser I don't see many appraisals, (mine or ones I review) that HIT THE SLES VALUE on the nose. If it had come in at $360,000 or $370,000 then I would think it was better and that the agent did a good job pricing it, but for the appraiser to hit it on the nose is funny to me and many other appraisers that have spent years doing 1,000s or appraisals and reviews

MoneyNFLA: (October 14, 2009 1:26pm)

The whole discussion about HVCC borders on silly. On a recent "HVCC" deal an out of the area appraiser sent in an 'appraisal' for $300K on a purchase contract of $362,500; We canceled the deal with that lender, and proceeded to get a new lender and, going through their processes, ended up with a local appraiser who brought the deal in at $363K. How's that for an opinion of value? Clearly there are appraisers who know their craft well and those who don't. Here's yet another instance of government market manipulation by trying legislate and award incompetence. As for the HVCC appraiser who rejoiced in the notion of not having to deal with the 'pressure' from industry participants. He / she posits a lame argument and supports the fact that they're spineless and lacked the fortitude to choose to do business with other professionals that have integrity. As a loan officer, I may have asked how an appraiser arrived at a situation while NEVER making them wrong for it and always respecting their opinion. This whole argument deflects the attention from the real source of the problems in housing and the economy in general - the private Federal Reserve banking cartel, it's member banks and its own loose monetary policy which literally was the force behind the credit bubble and distorted asset prices. While many industry particpants were part of the structure, it was created by the banking industry and Wall Street. They should be taking the bullets for problems like this until people educate themselves.

AppraiserBasedOnThisPlanet: (October 14, 2009 1:21pm)

joeC +1

joecolorado: (October 14, 2009 1:16pm)

FRANK IS DOING THE BEST FOR his client.....I have no objection to that, however its where a LO comes back to the SAME appraiser and the appraiser increases His/Her figure....THOSE are the people I want out of the profession. Frank is not an appraiser....let the people that run his profession monitor what he does...if its wrong he will be reprimanded, but I cannot tell him to get morals or ethics no more than I can tell him to cross his eyes. I do know that as the first appraiser I shouldnt have a problem with the second appraisers figure, as I shouldn't know about it. Having been told the figure however, should be a problem, which should concern the appraiser as the LO does not respect his clients privacy and he will have the same standard with you as his appraiser. I can defend MY values, hopefully the second appraiser can defend His/Hers.

AppraiserBasedOnThisPlanet: (October 14, 2009 1:11pm)

If you are an honest appraiser and believe in CAPITALISM, you wouldn't be asking F & B to remove this video. AMCs are nothing more than socialism at its finest. Seriously, what F&B are saying is the TRUTH. I'm sick of reviewing these AMC appraisals and seeing how doodooTY they are. About one in ten are good. AMCs are killing the industry. I have seen sooooo many undervalued properties lately it makes me SICK. And it is simply a matter of the appraiser not having a CLUE. Jesus appriasers WAKE UP or go work for the government....wait a minute we already are... SOCIALISM SUCKS AND SO DO AMCs.

CA Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 1:09pm)

Honestly F & B, this video should be removed IMMEDIATELY !!! I am an appraiser that has followed TBWS daily and appreciate all of the work you guys are doing on our (The appraisers) behalf. However, if this video gets out to the powers at be all of your hard work to help overturn the HVCC will be wiped out. The opinions expressed in this video are exactly why the HVCC was created and this video can be used as support for its existance. PLEASE REMOVE IT IMMEDIATELY !!!

i blame me: (October 14, 2009 1:06pm)

nuff said

joecolorado: (October 14, 2009 12:59pm)

guys....guys...guys....play nice or they will take their ball and go home......There is no definitive answer to appraisal problems. We should ALL have been working to a highest standard. The pressure is not there unless YOU permit it to be used against YOU......just tell them no....it really is sooooo easy. Comp checks....are acceptable if you want to work for free, because you wont be an appraiser for very long giving your expertise away....If the State hears about thyat you definately wont be working as an appraiser for very long....it is not legal....dont do it...as for giving out estimates of value without seeing the property....some appraisers are doing that by completing Exterior only drive by's.... created by Cuomo's crowd no less....have some pride in our profession, lets face it no one else is going to do it for us, so you had better do it for yourself....get a set of nads and start saying NO.

Allison: (October 14, 2009 12:59pm)

One of the appraisers who testified in favor of the HVCC had 77 requests for comp checks on one house, FAX'd to 77 different appraisers. First appraiser who could meet the requested value got the appraisal. She was then and is now collecting comp check requests and planning on investigating appraisers who do them.....better watch out

AppraiserBasedOnThisPlanet: (October 14, 2009 12:58pm)

If I was a Mort. Broker I would definately call a couple appraisers if I didn't have one I knew and trusted. I have (HAD) a couple solid brokers who trust my opinion and over the years we grew our businesses that were founded on solid business ethics. Now those relationships I worked so hard at are gone and they call me weekly with unbelievable stories about CRAPPY appraisals from appraisers I've never heard of. Capitalism is what this country was founded on and what our forefathers believed in. NOW! I am FORCED TO WORK FOR THESE INCOMPETENT AMCs and I now hate my work instead of love it. HR 3044 needs your support people and F & B please keep pushing it DAILY!

James the Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 12:58pm)

HOOO - todays log is so long I stopped reading and just reviewed the video. If Appraisers do the full job then 10 appraisers should come to a similar value on the same house, say 5%+/- if they all do the research. Can an appraiser know the value of a house before he sees it, maybe. If the house is a typical house in a sub-division with lots a similar comps, but condition (damage) and missing items (ranges, carpet and lights) can effect value and some time a lot. I did two home last week in the same sub-division, one sold for $298,000 and the other for $68,000. So if the second lender called me and asked for a value I would have said $298,000 +/- and his $68,000 sale would look very strange to him, until I go and see it and send him photos. On the $68,000 deal I also required a Home Inspection and Foundation Inspection making the report SUBJECT TO those inspections. The AMC asked me what the AS IS VALUE would be, I replied $25,000 and I would have to say that I felt the foundation made the property unstafe and it should come down. Now what if I had told the lender $298,000, he would be going nuts. So, is it possible to know the value before seeing the property, MAYBE.

READ BETWEEN THE LINES: (October 14, 2009 12:41pm)

The federal government wrote a law called the Community Reinvestment Act and was passed under Bill Clinton and pushed by Barney Frank and Senator Dodd. It demands that banks make loans to people who are poor credit risks. So that law was already passed. Then what happened, the federal government hung a threat over these banks because banks didn't want to make loans to people who were poor credit risks. That's not they are there in the business to do. So as part of the demand from the federal government, what they said is if the banks fail to lower their lending standards, then the federal government would shut down their interstate bank branches and they would not allow banks to open new branches. So in other words, the federal government would essentially shut these banks down if they refuse to make bad loans to people who wouldn't be able to pay them back. One way the banks could satisfy their requirement under the Community Reinvestment Act is they could partner with ACORN. So a bank could either make a cash donation to ACORN, they could give equipment donations or they could work with ACORN to provide these loans to people who are poor credit risks. One bank that did that was the Citizens Bank of Massachusetts. They put it in a partnership with ACORN. Minnesota Bank, Northeast Bank of Minnesota donated $2,000 to ACORN. New York Bank. But this is huge. Here you have the federal government demanding that banks lower their lending standards. And as a threat to these banks the federal government says we're putting you out of business unless you make these bad loans. But one way you can satisfy your Community Reinvestment Act rating, because you have to get a certain score, one way you could satisfy your score, give money to ACORN. Work with ACORN. You work with ACORN, you're good with us, says the federal government. This is so bad. But the dots are connecting.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 12:29pm)

Appraiserman, I almost didn't reply because you bore me. You're not even clever in any of your responses. If I thought you had anything of value to offer up or offend me with it might make me chuckle. But you've come up short time after time. You may be better suited as a suicide bomber, I suggest practicing first all alone first though....moron.

LovingLife HatingtheIndustry: (October 14, 2009 12:27pm)

Open mouth, insert foot. I'm hoping that I mis-understood... Shopping Values is good for the industry??? I would agree that in a sale situation not getting a second opinion on an appraisal that is short of an agreed upon sales price is ignorant. But what percentage of most appraiser's business is actually "sales". If a lender, broker, or whatever shops values in the refi market do you (or anyone for that matter) actually believe that the result is a better product. We market our company on service, experience, and competence... not "we hit your value". I enjoy TBWS daily posts, but i flew the middle finger at my computer today (I even watched it twice hoping I had heard something wrong)

Appraiserman: (October 14, 2009 12:26pm)

My main point - The HVCC is a disaster, pure Socialism at it's best, broght on by unethical ones such as Lender. If we could get rid of the trash like hem the profession and the world would be a nicer place!

Appraiserman: (October 14, 2009 12:23pm)

Lender, the only person that will be going somewhere is unethical brokers like you. You're a DISGRACE!! You lousy butt will be out of a job soon, just keep knawing at your fingernails and hanging on by a thread, your yeild spread is going awayyyyyy!!!!

AppraiserBasedOnThisPlanet: (October 14, 2009 12:18pm)

If you are an honest appraiser and believe in CAPITALISM, you wouldn't be asking F & B to remove this video. AMCs are nothing more than socialism at its finest. Seriously, what F&B are saying is the TRUTH. I'm sick of reviewing these AMC appraisals and seeing how doodooTY they are. About one in ten are good. AMCs are killing the industry. I have seen sooooo many undervalued properties lately it makes me SICK. And it is simply a matter of the appraiser not having a CLUE. Jesus appriasers WAKE UP or go work for the government....wait a minute we already are... SOCIALISM SUCKS AND SO DO AMCs.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 12:15pm)

I loved the video guys. I'm amazed at the whining group of Appraisers you've attracted. This is one insane and broke group of snotty nosed complainers. I do understand though, you got ripped off by HVCC something fierce. I wish some of these "Not so socialy gifted Apraisers" on this blog would realize no one has asked them to "Junt hang on" though. There is a reason for this temperment, some are recognizing that even with this small group of Appraisers left in the business, no one even is calling them still. They have found someone else. It's called business and someone does it cheaper than you. I know it sucks. Don't hang on anymore, go away, find something else to do and annoy the hell out of them finally

Central Valley: (October 14, 2009 12:14pm)

Ok guys, this should be kept professional! As an appraiser, I have made a point of learning as much about lending as I can. I have gotten my Brokers lic. by learning as much as I can about RE sales. To be true professions in an industry we need to know the ins and outs of each part of it. I have even taken underwriting courses to expand my knowledge and understanding. Knowledge and understanding are powerful tools. In other words, we should all know what goes into each others tasks!

Apprasier: (October 14, 2009 12:13pm)

I am going to send this link to Andrew Cuomoo so he can see that he was right. Not really, but I bet I had you all freaked out didn't I Frank? All that effort on that petition to be smashed by one slip of your non-ethical lip.

EdC: (October 14, 2009 12:10pm)

Good post Linda - thanks. Bring back Glass-Stegal imo. Listen appraisers (I am one for the last 20 years) get off your soap box of high moral integrity and stop taking the high ground with our brethren. What use is a law or regulation that is unenforceable? No good. Take that USPAP. You appraisers here are funny, as if "comp checks" are the last straw. Disengenuous at best considering the real problems out there that we should all be united against. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. I'm ashamed for you

Appraiserman: (October 14, 2009 12:09pm)

Appraiser - You are correct in your analysis of Lender!

Appraiserman: (October 14, 2009 12:01pm)

Lender, if your appraiser can tell you what a property is worht before he goes out he must be a freaking mind reader. Can you say condition, deferred maintenance, location, or functional obsloescence? You probally don't know what they mean you retard! For your information, if a two competent appraisers perform and appraisal on the same property they should not be more than a 3% - 5% difference. You are one ignorant person.

Beau in AZ: (October 14, 2009 12:01pm)

I digress. That was an uncalled for post towards Lender. My appologies to the professionals on the blog.

CA Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 12:01pm)

Honestly F & B, this video should be removed IMMEDIATELY !!! I am an appraiser that has followed TBWS daily and appreciate all of the work you guys are doing on our (The appraisers) behalf. However, if this video gets out to the powers at be all of your hard work to help overturn the HVCC will be wiped out. The opinions expressed in this video are exactly why the HVCC was created and this video can be used as support for its existance. PLEASE REMOVE IT IMMEDIATELY !!!

PROUDOFPROFESSION: (October 14, 2009 12:00pm)

'Unbelievable video. Thanks, you just destroyed any credibility you had on eliminating the HVCC' I believe this appraiser said exactly what 'MOST ETHICAL appraisers' are thinking of you both right now, your out for yourselves, self gratification.

Proudofprofession: (October 14, 2009 11:59am)

'Unbelievable video. Thanks, you just destroyed any credibility you had on eliminating the HVCC' I believe this appraiser said exactly what 'MOST ETHICAL appraisers' are thinking of you both right now, your out for yourselves, self gratification.

Apprasier: (October 14, 2009 11:58am)

Hey Lender, why would you offer my daughter a tea bag, not only are you worthless as a lender but your also a pedophile thus lends credibility to my definition of scum.

Proudofprofession: (October 14, 2009 11:57am)

'Unbelievable video. Thanks, you just destroyed any credibility you had on eliminating the HVCC' I believe this appraiser said exactly what 'MOST ETHICAL appraisers' are thinking of you both right now, your out for yourselves, self gratification.

DonaBlameMe: (October 14, 2009 11:57am)

Re: appraiser attrition. In the past, when appraiser integrity and experience counted for something, and when we had some control over our client base, inexperienced appraisers would fail to renew licenses during down times. This time it's different. Appraisers that have been successful for decades are being forced to find alternative careers before their families starve to death. AMC orders must be going to the inexperienced low ballers, cuz they're sure not coming to me or my peers who have been in the biz forever.

DonaBlameMe: (October 14, 2009 11:56am)

Re: appraiser attrition. In the past, when appraiser integrity and experience counted for something, and when we had some control over our client base, inexperienced appraisers would fail to renew licenses during down times. This time it's different. Appraisers that have been successful for decades are being forced to find alternative careers before their families starve to death. AMC oZPS85rders must be going to the inexperienced low ballers, cuz they're sure not coming to me or my peers who have been in the biz forever.

Beau in AZ: (October 14, 2009 11:54am)

Hey lender, the "whining loan officer", wasn't there some self inflicted blunt force trauma in your immdiate future?

Appraiserman: (October 14, 2009 11:53am)

Lender, you are a piece of crap as well. I have been here for over 20 years and I'm not going anywhere. I sold over $3M worth of Real Estate this year as well. I don't live my life by putting people in mortgages they can't afford and screwing them on the backside with yield spread. there are good and bad in every profession and you're and example of the bad.

Linda: (October 14, 2009 11:53am)

The appraisal is done for the benefit of the lender. The buyer and seller have already determined the value in their minds, the contract being their determination.(if a cash sale, there is no appraisal, and the parties are deemed happy with the value they've jointly agreed upon). The lender's underwriter has the ultimate task of determining if the loan will be sufficiently collateralized based on the report submitted. The underwriter relies upon the appraiser's report, comparing the reported information for compliance with agency guidelines (FHA, VA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac). Other underwriting tools are available, including requesting the appraiser to provide additional comparable sales, conversations with the appraiser, review appraisals, and databases provided by the agencies for similar sales--these are just some of the tools in our toolbox. In the final analysis, the approval of the loan request, including the appraisal, rests with the underwriter. My personal belief is that mortgage originators should be informed as to property value expectation and with the market volatility, it is good business to have a conversation with appraisals they deem reliable, dependent and knowledgeable. With appraisals costing hundreds of dollars, it is likely to save some potential borrowers a lot of money if a conversation reveals that comps aren't likely to support a value that the buyer thinks his property is worth. As an FHA/VA/FNMA/FHLMC underwriter of more than 35 years, (no subprime, please) I would welcome a return to the fee panel underwriting system that VA has in place (and has never changed) for assignment by VA of the appraiser on a rotation basis. A similar arrangement was in place with FHA for many years (until FHA believed there to be wisdom in becoming more like conventional agencies). I don't agree with the current brokering of appraisal assignments through a government designated referral service. These have proven to initially be very incompetent, confusing and I am questioning the expertise of the appraisers on the rosters. The appraisers are paid a very reduced fee, though the cost of the appraisal to the consumer is not reduced. Leaving the brokers out of the mix is not productive. Only a small percentage of brokers and appraisers are scoundrels, but the entire profession is being indicted for the actions of a small percentage of criminals. When I underwrite loans, I value the input of my trusted brokers and even more, of the appraisers. Ultimately, my name and government designation goes on the loan approval or declination and it's my responsibility to determine if the value on the appraisal is reasonable. My track record is excellent. I don't have any early defaults on my loans, and it's largely in part to the training I received in the 1970s to loan money only to borrowers who have demonstrated the ability and willingness to repay their obligation. All this new legislation is not needed. We just need to go back to basics--and stop creating programs that are a license to steal for brokers and a foreclosure waiting to happen for borrowers.

BOBBI BROKER: (October 14, 2009 11:51am)

HJow do I stop this coming to my email

Lender: (October 14, 2009 11:46am)

Big Al, Loan Officers are next. In '07 there was 72% more Loan Officers than right now...Only 28% next. With this new YSP that will take the rest or a large percentage of the rest of them. No one outside our industry is seeing the damage created by Congress regarding our lives and careers and families, all in the name of "Protecting the Consumer." This is nothing more than lobbyist helping their monopolies. Too bad, so sad! Soon they will see.

BIG AL: (October 14, 2009 11:42am)

Why do I need to get get a certified license if my appraisals are certified? If my appraisals are certified why can't I do FHA's anymore? I spent alot of money taking FHA and 203K classes and passing the FHA test 11 years ago. Every FHA Update class I took. Why should someone who just went from trainee to certified that hasn't done an FHA appraisal be more qualified? FHA should have kicked off the ones who did not take the test. I know it wasn't there fault, it was our congress pushed by AI that created FHA's mess. In California there down to under 6,000 on roster. Some are AG license that don't really want to do FHA's because they can make more doing commercial. So how many certified will be available next year. There droping out at a fast rate. I'll still have a license for the next four years, but I am getting out and doing something else. Wait till everyone wakes up, because this is a total nightmare.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 11:37am)

Hey Appraiserman (Appraiser) Hurry up and go out of business already. Since no one is calling you, it's time for you to go job searching and find something where you can be completely isolated again for society. I think you worked too long by yourself and you have created an environment only you can deal inside. You have no brain and you are worthless to your family right now. Quit already!

EdC: (October 14, 2009 11:36am)

You're blaming the wrong group of people for the financial crisis. The onus was ALWAYS on the banks to consider their own risk when they make a loan with proper underwriting. They're the ones with the money and they lent it out! At some point risk was no longer an issue and anything went through - why? Because of the banks greed in not filtering out risk. Just like what they're doing now and we're paying for it and will continue to pay for it. What really gets me is Obama had a chance to make real change in the banking system and what does he do? He appoints those that were part of the meltdown - Geithner for instance. Sad.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 11:32am)

Hey Appraiser, when the next condo complex's has more than 15% default ratio on HOA payments are you going to continue processing the appraisal so you can keep your skimpy little check? I thought so, you're a fruitcake...But you're Daughter likes a good tea bag though, so you did something write jerkoff.

Starving Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 11:31am)

I wish I could watch this video today but can't since I don't have 20-30 mins to waste waiting for a 6-7 min video to play. Keeps freezing up & giving me the circle (guess that's better than the finger). Nothings changed on my end and not having this problem with any other videos or sites so I'm guessing "it's progress" disguised as an upgrade. TRUTHFULLY my interest in this site waned drastically when I was ripped for being 'anti-HVCC' and singled out as "always negative"... yes I'm bringing that up again because I think it pertains to the overall direction of this site, a video marketing site trying to attract industry people in hopes of selling their services, which is not a problem in itself. Many appraisers were directed to this site, by this site's HVCC petition, and then told don't be so HVCC negative. Now, today's video apparently has most appraisers in an uproar, and rightfully so. Not sure if it was bad terminology or something else since I can't view the video, but based on the majority of today's post, seems F & B are now promoting/supporting one of the fundamental issues that was/is a major contributor to the current market crisis. There's a difference in shopping an appraisal/appraiser and shopping for a value/number hitter. If you practice ethics and morals, seems you would have a solid relationship with reputable appraiser(s) that you could trust, hence no need to shop.... unless it's really the number you're looking for instead of a credible report. If there are issues with data or methods within an appraisal, a review should be the first line of action. "Appraiser shopping" as a result of a defendable low value is unethical, immoral and a disservice to the buyer/homeowner. This is how folks end up "upside down" on their mortgage and leads to increasing foreclosures and instability in the market .... oh wait, that's where we are now!!! Just wondering if after today's fiasco here will the petition ever be delivered as stated? >>> Now my 2 cents for appraisers ... FIRST...USPAP is the appraiser's bible and any appraiser who intentionally ignores or disregards it is in the wrong business. It's not perfect, but it's a start. SECOND...appraised value is an opinion of value, not an exact science. If that opinion is based on good data resulting in a credible report and within USPAP guidelines, lenders should be grateful the appraiser is protecting their investment and not just trying to make a buck today with no regard to tomorrow's outcome. BUT, some appraisers are arrogant, god-like in thier own minds, and will not communicate professionally when an issue arises...not good business practices. We all should realize that our opinion is not the only valid view point and consider any and all relevant data provided to us. In my experience more often than not, it is the agent that is the most upset when the value is low, not my client the lender. These agents often call me with their defense of the sale price. Vast majority of the time it has no effect on the report results...they often comp the subj to distant, higher sales less comparable than the sales available nearby. But occaisionally, a realtor will provide additional information that I was unable to obtain (agent didn't return calls) and if it is relevant, it may or may not result in a change in value. Either way, it is my duty and due diligence to consider any and all information obtained to produce a credible report based on the most comparable comps. AGENTS, please understand the importance of accurate and complete MLS data. If you don't, it could affect one of your future deals and create unnecessary delays and conflict. Lot's of LLLOOONNNGGG post today. I'll stop for now.

GreenEyeBluey: (October 14, 2009 11:30am)

Why would an appraiser ask for purchase contracts when they received the appraisal request? Isnt this predetermining the value? I have always thought this was wrong, but always presumed it was something that the Realtors pushed. Can't figure out how the REaltors got out of this without any mark on their reputations. They push value, ramrod the process, intimidate all involved...all the while screaming about what everyone else makes off the deal so no one notices THEY'RE the ones making 3 to 10% on a deal..

Apprasier: (October 14, 2009 11:29am)

Hey "Lender" when one of your loans is foreclosed on do you feel bad and return half of your commission? Yeah, that's what I thought, why don't you just read and let intelligent people write the blogs.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 11:23am)

Appraiserman, you're nuts. When I used to be able to use my own appraiser he would always call me and tell me if the value would come in before even going out. When he would come in undervalue, he actually felt bad to the client and would send half their money back. He did this without me asking. It worked into me calling him while taking an application to make sure a refinance transaction could move forward. He could do it in 5 minutes. It saved me time, the clients money. The way you handle your business it's no wonder you suck at your job. Get a clue, take a social class so you can see what an ass you really are.

Beau in AZ: (October 14, 2009 11:18am)

Frank, I think it is totally within your right to shop the opinion of the appraiser. I have done many desktop and field reviews and I don't remember when the last time was that I came in at exactly the same value as the original appraiser but usually within 5%. Getting a second opinion might ensure that the homeowner is getting the best value and rate for their loan. And it is not a violation of USPAP as many say so shop away. By the way, I charge a fee for this service and my opinion of value is delivered to you on a 1004 URAR form. Did you used to work for WaMu?

ILAppraiser: (October 14, 2009 11:17am)

Shopping for an appraisal? Yeah, basically it is unethical as generally IMHO (and experience) LO's are looking to push numbers when they shop appraisers. It was always a mystery to me when comparing two appraisals, the guy who had the higher number was the guy who was "right". Happened to me many times (being the lower guy), and we might not have gotten into the mess we are in if rather than always agreeing with the higher number guy's estimate, someone should have really examined how each appraiser came to his conclusions. An appraisal is a "logical and defensible estimate of market value", not some pulled out of the hat number concocted when and sale that has 4 walls and a roof is used to justify an inflated value. When numbers vary widely, say more than 5 percent, there is something way wrong with one of the estimates (though perhaps both. Shopping for an appraisal in behalf of your client's "best interest" is often just a cover for being able to push through a deal that probably stinks in one form or another. Same crap that got us here in the first place. Face it, most LO's just flip to page 2 to see the number at the bottom, without reading the appraisal completely. I don't think they would understand one anyway. Maybe you should shop for the most competent appraiser instead. Hell, with LP or DO software doing most of the work, you should have plenty of time to research the most qualified appraisers in your area.

AppraiserBarb: (October 14, 2009 11:16am)

An appraisal is NOT an OPINION pulled out of the air! Contrarily, it is an experienced and professional opinion about particular data that has been thoroughly researched. Differences in “opinion” of market value will be wide when that research is not diligent, not adequate. Every appraisal states that the Appraiser CERTIFIES: “I HAVE RESEARCHED THE SUBJECT MARKET AREA AND HAVE SELECTED A MINIMUM OF THREE RECENT SALES OF PROPERTIES MOST SIMILAR AND PROXIMATE TO THE SUBJECT PROPERTY.” (Too many appraisers blatantly lie when they certify this. If every appraiser was honest about this certification, if every appraiser actually did spend the time necessary to find and use these “MOST similar and proximate” properties, all the value estimates by any number of appraisers would be extremely close. There would be no need for “shopping.”) “NO SIGNIFICANT INFORMATION HAS BEEN WILLINGLY WITHHELD.” (Too many appraisers blatantly lie when they certify this.) “MY ENGAGEMENT IN THIS ASSIGNMENT WAS NOT CONTINGENT UPON DEVELOPING OR REPORTING PREDETERMINED RESULTS.” (This certification is a lie when a comp check was first given. This certification is a lie when the appraiser thinks, “What will it hurt? It’s only a refi…” or thinks, “Gee! It’s a single mom in a tough financial bind,” etc. Or, yes, when they know they’ll get more work if they achieve the desired value.) I agree with you guys, Brian and Frank: if existing laws and regs had been/would be ENFORCED, our country and our world would not be in the mess we are in!

Apprasier: (October 14, 2009 11:13am)

I think we should all sign the HVCC petition so Frank and Barney can go back to shopping appraisals. You go and make all that money and then you can lend on those homes again when are foreclosed on. I think they call that job security?

yougetbupkiss: (October 14, 2009 11:12am)

to the House of Horrors Representative. You are suggesting that we are asking appraisers for a predetermined value? Only a young, uneducated, foolish, wet behind-the-ears and half-brained mope would do such a thing. And hopefully, by now most of those have left the business due to attrition. Or, they have gone to work for one of these fly-by-night modification organizations that has (or hopefully had) the advertising budget to buy 4 or 5 "EZ-Mod" billboards on the 101 (Obviously paid for by charging "english as a second language"client's credit cards upfront anywhere from $3,000 - 4,500...the less they understood english the more they were charged.) Well, hopefully AB94 and other bills will put these charlatans out of business for good and maybe send some of them to manage Bernie's UFC skills in the pen. By the way, you ought to brush up on the King's language. Do you really hold some kind of quasi-government position? Well you know about the Peter Principle right? Cheers...

Appraiserman: (October 14, 2009 11:09am)

Blatantly, you are the one who is full of CRAP! you are a disgrace to the lending community. USPAP is a needed set of rules. I have been in the Appraisal and Real Estate business for over 20 years. I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly and you are the ugly!!!! I used to have brokers call me all the time and state" If you can get x amount for this house I'll send you the appraisal" and "bring this one in where we need it and we'll send you more work." I have had several brokers who sent me work and I had several appraisals that didn't come in where they "thought they should be" and guess what, no more orders! I hate the HVCC, it has caused me about a 30% loss of my income, but guess what, people like you and the afore mentioned brokers is why we have the HVCC. Be honest for once in your life.

Appraiserman: (October 14, 2009 11:08am)

Blatantly, you are the one who is full of CRAP! you are a disgrace to the lending community. USPAP is a needed set of rules. I have been in the Appraisal and Real Estate business for over 20 years. I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly and you are the ugly!!!! I used to have brokers call me all the time and state" If you can get x amount for this house I'll send you the appraisal" and "bring this one in where we need it and we'll send you more work." I have had several brokers who sent me work and I had several appraisals that didn't come in where they "thought they should be" and guess what, no more orders! I hate the HVCC, it has caused me about a 30% loss of my income, but guess what, people like you and the afore mentioned brokers is why we have the HVCC. Be honest for once in your life.

Appraiserman: (October 14, 2009 11:07am)

Blatantly, you are the one who is full of CRAP! you are a disgrace to the lending community. USPAP is a needed set of rules. I have been in the Appraisal and Real Estate business for over 20 years. I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly and you are the ugly!!!! I used to have brokers call me all the time and state" If you can get x amount for this house I'll send you the appraisal" and "bring this one in where we need it and we'll send you more work." I have had several brokers who sent me work and I had several appraisals that didn't come in where they "thought they should be" and guess what, no more orders! I hate the HVCC, it has caused me about a 30% loss of my income, but guess what, people like you and the afore mentioned brokers is why we have the HVCC. Be honest for once in your life.

EdC: (October 14, 2009 11:07am)

HHREP - you're being ridiculous. By denying comp requests are you protecting the consumer from spending money they don't have? I see this insistance of a USPAP violation, that CAN"T BE PROVEN over a phone conversation, straight out self-serving greed. You don't care about the consumer, only your fee. Why aren't you complaining about your report being sliced and diced for data? Why aren't you complaining about amc's and them forcing unsuitable comparables on inexperienced $150 appraisers? You've been sold out by all the appraisal organizations and you want to make a stand at comp checks? Too little too late. Do them if you want, don't do them if you don't want to. It's really a simple choice. Do you consider your job part of protecting the consumer or is the consumer the last on your list. Use your head. It's good karma to protect the consumer. When a few banks aren't in control of the loan process from beginning to end and control 85% of all loans being made, then and only then can we be pro-active in protecting the consumer. Till then our best chance of protecting the consumer is doing comp checks. I did them but only for ethical brokers. If I didn't get the job because the value wasn't there, I didn't whine about it, I patted myself on the back for helping a homeowner with an unrealistic expectation of value save an appraisal fee that they probably couldn't afford. Yes, I did comp checks - prove it. You can't.

ANGRY APPRAISER: (October 14, 2009 11:07am)

YES SHELTER ISLAND SD, A Los Angeles appraiser should never have accepted a assignment in San Diego. A south San Diego county appraiser should have handeled your order. This is why APPRAISAL MANAGEMENT COMPANYS need to assign appraisers in the subject market. Most AMC's have clerks issuing orders and have know idea what there doing. This is why there are problems in this business. I live in South Orange county and I would not have done this order.

Appraiserman: (October 14, 2009 11:06am)

Blatantly, you are the one who is full of CRAP! you are a disgrace to the lending community. USPAP is a needed set of rules. I have been in the Appraisal and Real Estate business for over 20 years. I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly and you are the ugly!!!! I used to have brokers call me all the time and state" If you can get x amount for this house I'll send you the appraisal" and "bring this one in where we need it and we'll send you more work." I have had several brokers who sent me work and I had several appraisals that didn't come in where they "thought they should be" and guess what, no more orders! I hate the HVCC, it has caused me about a 30% loss of my income, but guess what, people like you and the afore mentioned brokers is why we have the HVCC. Be honest for once in your life.

MDH: (October 14, 2009 11:06am)

Unbelievable video. Thanks, you just destroyed any credibility you had on eliminating the HVCC. I would love to see this position espoused in front of a Congressional comittee. Your position that it is OK to shop appraisal values is wrong and unethical. It is why we got the HVCC crammed down our throats in the first place. An appraiser is NOT going to give a realiable opinion of value over the phone without seeing the property or doing a lot of work. And they know that if they don't hit your number you will go on to the next appraiser. It's called moral hazard. Pay them for their work if you want multiple opinions. Unbelievable!

ANGRY APPRAISER: (October 14, 2009 11:05am)

YES SHELTER ISLAND SD, A Los Angeles appraiser should never have accepted a assignment in San Diego. A south San Diego county appraiser should have handeled your order. This is why APPRAISAL MANAGEMENT COMPANYS need to assign appraisers in the subject market. Most AMC's have clerks issuing orders and have know idea what there doing. This is why there are problems in this business. I live in South Orange county and I would not have done this order.

Appraiserman: (October 14, 2009 11:05am)

Blatantly, you are the one who is full of CRAP! you are a disgrace to the lending community. USPAP is a needed set of rules. I have been in the Appraisal and Real Estate business for over 20 years. I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly and you are the ugly!!!! I used to have brokers call me all the time and state" If you can get x amount for this house I'll send you the appraisal" and "bring this one in where we need it and we'll send you more work." I have had several brokers who sent me work and I had several appraisals that didn't come in where they "thought they should be" and guess what, no more orders! I hate the HVCC, it has caused me about a 30% loss of my income, but guess what, people like you and the afore mentioned brokers is why we have the HVCC. Be honest for once in your life.

ANGRY APPRAISER: (October 14, 2009 11:04am)

YES SHELTER ISLAND SD, A Los Angeles appraiser should never have accepted a assignment in San Diego. A south San Diego county appraiser should have handeled your order. This is why APPRAISAL MANAGEMENT COMPANYS need to assign appraisers in the subject market. Most AMC's have clerks issuing orders and have know idea what there doing. This is why there are problems in this business. I live in South Orange county and I would not have done this order.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 11:00am)

I think this is an old show. F & B like to rerun old shows they may not have used when they are busy fixing their computers and trying to get appraisals in on their own files. LOL. You can tell by Brian's lips when he says the date that they dub it in for today. I saw it last week too. At least they are busy, they can sure market well.

United we Stand, Divided we Fall: (October 14, 2009 11:00am)

As an appraiserwhen you give a hard value that is considered an appraisal. It is legal to give a range of value, based on the marketing area parameters, without looking at the subject and comparables, I don't see any way you can quote anything but a range of value. Because LO and realtors should pull there own comps, in my opinion there's nothing wrong with comparing data, with respect to a range of value. I would inform my clients that if they can do there loan within that range we can proceed with the order,if not let your client know that to do the loan falls outside the range of value needed to do there loan.

yougetbupkiss: (October 14, 2009 10:51am)

The previous appraiser obviously does not have command of the King's language.

yougetbupkiss: (October 14, 2009 10:50am)

The previous appraiser obviously does not have command of the King's language.

yougetbupkiss: (October 14, 2009 10:50am)

The previous appraiser obviously does not have command of the King's language.

Shelter Island Capital SD: (October 14, 2009 10:45am)

This is part of what i had to go though on my last appraisal. The appraiser came from Los Angeles the Subject property is in Point Loma (San Diego) 97 miles away "A) Please note: This appraisal was ordered to provide the client an accurate valuation of their property for the purposes of financing. Accuracy is very important because the client will rely on this appraisal report to make one of the largest financial decisions in their life. They are depending on the appraiser to give them an accurate report without mistakes and errors. It is understandable that sometimes there will be oversights. When the appraiser fails to provide the most recent sales comparison data and fails to accurately report and analyze key property characteristics’ of the subject property and comparable sales and these errors are brought to the appraisers attention with objective data to support the requested changes and this appraiser responds by belittling the clients by claiming that these clients along with every other homeowner “feel that their properties (are) worth their weight in gold” to respond formally in this manner is unprofessional and it brings up great concern of the appraiser’s competency and judgment. Simply because the client no longer has the ability to choose the appraiser does not give this appraiser the right to do substandard work and neglect request for corrections. B) Please note: That NOT ONCE did the clients ever dispute the appraised value of the property. All requests were for clarification as to why certain adjustments were made or omitted, and why certain potential comparable properties were excluded from the report Other request were to inform the appraiser of factual errors contained in the report and to have them corrected. The appraiser’s response was vague, contradictory to himself, and supported with inaccurate data. Below are requests for corrections to the report and request for clarifications on certain aspects of the report. Please correct the noted errors. Attached is supporting documentation. If the appraiser has other documentation that is better that what is provide or if the client provided inaccurate supporting documentation please comment. "

EdC: (October 14, 2009 10:45am)

Blatant lol. The lenders are the ones that aren't making reports portable. The hvcc says they are if the bank chooses - they choose not to. More bank greed at work. The hvcc is for the lenders and not the appraisers. You need to get your facts straight before you lay blame.

HHREP: (October 14, 2009 10:42am)

Stop the crap! Look, all of us have to stick together. You will push away appraisers if you act like asking for predetermined values, comp checks, lookups are no big deal. To us, its clearly violating USPAP. If the rules were reversed and asking for one would cost you thousands of dollars in fines, suspension and/or loss of license, you would stop in a heart beat. We try to balance real life and USPAP. If you get that, then there is no issue. There are not may crimes were only one party is found guilty when both are involved. So those that say "grow up", you are the problem because if you work honestly, all this can be avoided. Its just only honest LO's are the ones who follow that code, the others do it knowing full well its not right or just don't know the rules? where do you stand? ask yourself if it was your livelyhood.

AZLONER: (October 14, 2009 10:41am)

I have never asked an appraiser to give me value on a property outside of a formal appraisal. I have asked for an idea of whether or not value was in the ballpark and my appraiser would send me all of the recent comps in that particular area and I could reach my own conclusion. As for shopping around, I always had two appraisers that I always worked with. Why? Because I trusted their judgment and we had a personal relationship that was very solid. Again, the key word is trust.

Blatantly: (October 14, 2009 10:37am)

No guys I have great ethics, I've just not found that the guys hiding behind USPAP have any. What's with the appraisal not being portable? More money in the appraiser's hand. You can't tell me that the data contained therein is only good for one person and the numbers would change with another lender or another buyer.

AZLONER: (October 14, 2009 10:36am)

I have never asked an appraiser to give me value on a property outside of a formal appraisal. I have asked for an idea of whether or not value was in the ballpark and my appraiser would send me all of the recent comps in that particular area and I could reach my own conclusion. As for shopping around, I always had two appraisers that I always worked with. Why? Because I trusted their judgment and we had a personal relationship that was very solid. Again, the key word is trust.

AZLONER: (October 14, 2009 10:29am)

I have never asked an appraiser to give me value on a property outside of a formal appraisal. I have asked for an idea of whether or not value was in the ballpark and my appraiser would send me all of the recent comps in that particular area and I could reach my own conclusion. As for shopping around, I always had two appraisers that I always worked with. Why? Because I trusted their judgment and we had a personal relationship that was very solid. Again, the key word is trust.

DAG: (October 14, 2009 10:29am)

Way2Lucky - I could have written exactly what you are discussing. The problem with you and me are that we had reliable, honest relationships with appraisers. Now those appraisers are working for half the money, filing bankruptcy and we're stuck with appraisers coming from hours away and delivering practically unusable appraisals. Every loan I've had since HVCC was put into force has been a nighmare. Every single one, and I went from 3 day turnaround to three weeks, because they cannot get it delivered to the AMC company or the AMC company is sitting on it. Then after 3 weeks it is absolutely useless. Even when they are clearly wrong, appraisers will make no adjustments. I actually had one this week overvalue the property by 20%!

AI NO MORE: (October 14, 2009 10:26am)

I belong to the AI and all they did was put me out of business. Now its there turn! DO NOT JOIN OR REJOIN THE APPRIASAL INSTITUTE.

DAG: (October 14, 2009 10:23am)

Way2Lucky - I could have written exactly what you are discussing. The problem with you and me are that we had reliable, honest relationships with appraisers. Now those appraisers are working for half the money, filing bankruptcy and we're stuck with appraisers coming from hours away and delivering practically unusable appraisals. Every loan I've had since HVCC was put into force has been a nighmare. Every single one, and I went from 3 day turnaround to three weeks, because they cannot get it delivered to the AMC company or the AMC company is sitting on it. Then after 3 weeks it is absolutely useless. Even when they are clearly wrong, appraisers will make no adjustments. I actually had one this week overvalue the property by 20%!

mbabbitt: (October 14, 2009 10:22am)

Where can I find more information about the Feds taking over Short Sales. Everything I find goes back to the MHA and May of 2009 when the Tresuary Department made some announcments. Is there something new they are coming up with?

Just Pissed: (October 14, 2009 10:22am)

Frank and Brian, appraisers don't like being shopped, well news flash no one does. Mortgage originators have to live and work every day understanding that there is someone else looking to get their loan, should there be an origination version of HVCC, giving us less income but guaranteed work and whatever interest rate we give is what they get? The fact is if an originator can't get value then we all know the deal is done and we are done with it. Quite frankly working with appraisers that boost value won't work for Originators because banks will nix them anyways.

Lender: (October 14, 2009 10:19am)

I can't take anymore posts from whining/complaining appraisers. HVCC sucks for all of us. You have options, like working for a Direct Lender on their HVCC rotation and getting all the fees generated for each appraisal. We're all disappointed you lost your client base, it's not fair whatsoever....But If I have to read one more post from a whining appraiser I'm going to give myself some Blunt Force Trauma

mbabbitt: (October 14, 2009 10:18am)

Where can I find more information about the Feds taking over Short Sales. Everything I find goes back to the MHA and May of 2009 when the Tresuary Department made some announcments. Is there something new they are coming up with?

GDI: (October 14, 2009 10:17am)

Lender, please do not forget to plug it in first. Sorry, you asked for it. I hear everyone whine here. What makes you special

Lender: (October 14, 2009 10:13am)

I can't take anymore posts from whining/complaining appraisers. HVCC sucks for all of us. You have options, like working for a Direct Lender on their HVCC rotation and getting all the fees generated for each appraisal. We're all disappointed you lost your client base, it's not fair whatsoever....But If I have to read one more post from a whining appraiser I'm going to electrocute myself wtih my wife's hairdryer

mbabbitt: (October 14, 2009 10:12am)

Where can I find more information about the Feds taking over Short Sales. Everything I find goes back to the MHA and May of 2009 when the Tresuary Department made some announcments. Is there something new they are coming up with?

Jetloan: (October 14, 2009 9:45am)

I had 2 appraisals done, both under HVCC, so I did not speak to either appraiser. One came in at $895,000. The second came in at $470,000. ????

GDI: (October 14, 2009 9:44am)

Blatantly, you are by definition the problem. Appraisers hate how grey USPAP is, we do not hide behind it. What truly sucks is how all of us interpret it. This causes confusion. It only comes in clear when you violate it and you are penalized by a Govt entity(or someone else is). So, as good appraisers try to balance real life and USPAP, people like you are the ones who ask us to flat out break the rules and put ourselves in perile for your wallet. I do not think so. Frank this is what you must seperate yourself from when you make comments that would lean in favor of us breaking the rules that govern us. Rules we do not like either, but what are our choices? I am not comparing you to this guy, but this is what we are up against. You shopping around is not illegal, what you ask of us is, do you see the difference?

Central Valley: (October 14, 2009 8:39am)

Blatantly - You have no idea what you are talking about! If you realy belive what you are saying you have no ethics, no morals, and no minimum standards... GDI - Good post!

GDI: (October 14, 2009 8:33am)

Frank, I have always thought of you as pretty fair minded so I have no complaint unitl now. The reason other appraisers are upset with you is, your question by itself forces the appraiser to violate USPAP and either you do not understand this or do not care. Even if you disagree with USPAP, we are governed by it. You are making the appraiser you work for you violate USPAP and putting him/her in a dangerous corner. No way of rewording it. If an appraiser tells you he can not give an idea of value, and you keep looking until you find one who will. You have just found someone unethical or has no problem violating USPAP, which is pretty clear on the penalty, revocation of license or certification. Agree or not, that is the black and white and their is NO middle. I am not saying you are scum. Now you know the reality of each appraiser you ask. What you do from here on out is what indicates what type of professional you are. Yes, this rule has always been around and the way to get by it is sending you all the sales in the immediate area, which is public info, and you decide from that list if the risk is worth the order. The appraiser can NOT even give a hint of which sales he/she feels are comparable. If you do not like this you can always order several appraisals. Trust me, as an appraiser, I wish I could give a heads up and have a better realtionship with the LO, but its clear that this turns into something unethical too many times. You and I and other appraisers and LO's like us have to suffer for the bad ones. If you accept that a certain number of us will act improperly, than those are the true scum, does that make any sense?

Blatantly: (October 14, 2009 8:17am)

USPAP IS CRAP! Always has been and always will be. It's written BY appraisers FOR appraisers. It's a crutch that weak appraisers hide behind and is written the way it's written to generate more income for the appraisers.

MMN: (October 14, 2009 8:14am)

I have been an originator for 12 years and have always had a "favorite" appraiser. Not because he hit values, but because he was honest with me. When he's appraised a property for me two years earlier and the borrower is calling about refinancing and in the current market when I am questioning whether their property is going to even be worth the same value AND he sees comps every single day, I put a call into him and ask him if I am way off base. He just tells me the way it is ("No Way In Heck" or "It'll be close". My client is extremely pleased that I didn't "waste" their hard earned money on an appraisal. I've had a couple clients that I told it couldn't be done. Then they got a letter from their "local bank" to say they were "preapproved" and then spent money on an appraisal, only to find out that the value wasn't there. They then called me to say "they should have listened to me". That shows the additional service that I try to give all my clients.

joecolorado: (October 14, 2009 8:14am)

Frank, I dont object that you go and look for a second appraisal, that is your business. What I do for my client is give them my DEFENSIBLE estimate of value. If appraiser #2 gives his or her DEFENSIBLE estimate, we are both correct. The lending decision and risk factor is assessed and a decision is then made by the U/W, tat is their business. If and when the borrower/loan has negative issues, I can still DEFEND my Estimate. I dont defend any appraiser that has pushed value and I let the State Board hear about them PDQ. Its THOSE people I want out of the industry. What you do with your business is your concern and whether you have serviced your client under your ethical and moral standards is entirely up to you. Your industry will sort out if you have done wrong, who am I as an appraiser to judge what your method of operation as a mortgage lender may be, I can vouch for myself only and defend my values only. I sleep well at night knowing I have done a good job. As for not seeing a property prior to making a value statement......some appraisers do that with exterior only drive by's......a service I did not happen to offer to my past clients. If they needed me to give you a DEFENSIBLE estimate, no matter what the MINIMUM requirements were from the U/W....a full appraisal was suggested, if they didnt want that service, then I didnt feel confident in supplying them with a figure which could be misleading... That is MY choice.....I also talk to Realtors!!!!!!shock horror!!!! and get their opinions on their sales prices......Oh the indignity!!!!!!I deign to discuss the condition of the houses they have for sale and which have sold.....THATS IN MY JOB DESCRIPTION....but estimating the Value is MY JOB and I do not permit, and never have permitted, anyone to infuence my decision of value... Realtors give me good service, I gets tons of information from them, but as soon as they mention the word"value" I cut them off, They are realtors....NOT appraisers......lets get back to putting some pride in our profession....act like an appraiser and behave like an appraiser, the world will then treat you AS an appraiser.....be honest have a good work ethic and dont be bullied by these AMC's, If you have any notion of your worth, then stick to your guns, tell them what you charge for your excellent services, what your turnaround time is for that particular property and dont let them browbeat you into accepting anything less.

appraiserchick: (October 14, 2009 8:12am)

Wow, so many comments from both good and bad LO's and good and bad appraisers. Getting "Value" is definitely not the correct term. Reaching a reasonable market value as defined by "The most probable price a dwelling will sell for on the open market when both a knowledgeable buyer and seller are involved." The problem is a lot of times there is not both. The majority of the population knows more about buying a car than they do about buying a home. HVCC has allowed the "bad" appraisers who never got work from the good mortgage brokers or the local banks that are apt to keep their loans in house and risk loss are still able to get work by continuing to work for buck! A much lower buck but a buck just the same. They think that if they put these ridiculous declining adjustments on sales that are less than 3 months old with reasonable DOM (less than 60) and fewer listings than sales...they won’t get reviewed and can claim they are being diligent. They obviously are still not analyzing the market. They are allowing the national norm to analyze for them so they don’t have to. I have worked for local banks for over 10 years now and while some have been forced to use AMC’s they are still using my company due to turn around time and reputable appraisals even if they do not “get value”. They are responsible for the loss. If mortgage brokers were held more liable for their losses maybe they wouldn’t shop appraisals. And yes..I do know a little about being a mortgage broker, my husband had his own company for 10 years before becoming a AE for a lender that is now out of business! (They were owned by AIG). I never did work for any of his clients or for his company prior to that!!! I did not want to have any part of it and I still got all the business I could handle. Fortunately I live in a market of many small banks and Credit Unions that are not forced to utilize an AMC and will make more this year than I have in the past! I know who the appraisers are who will “hit value” and they are the ones now working for the AMC’s and now those same LO’s are out business. I have even reviewed HUD appraisals where the management company sent an appraiser 180 miles to our area to do an appraisal. Guess what..he didn’t even go in the dwelling..out of 21 comps on 3 appraisals not one comp photo was of the correct house and things like a downed power line in the back yard were over looked!! This was on a HUD appraisal…where safety counts! The management company did not want to pay the going fee for an REO appraisal from someone FHA approved in the area so they got him!! Maybe HVCC should take a look at how an ERC appraisal is completed. 2 appraisals that if don’t come in within 5% of each others determined probable sales price then a 3rd is ordered. They pay good fees for these and generally get a quality report. And guess what you get graded!!! A report every month that shows the actual sales price vs your determined probable sales price. Please note the term is “probable sales price”…even they know that in today’s market that may not always be Market Value. And if you aren’t close…you don’t get work! If we were all graded on our actual quality and not volume…then the volume would soon come…Trust me..I will make over 6 figures this year doing quality appraisals without any AMC’s. Yes some of the work is for lenders that have commercial portfolios of blocks of rental homes that have gone bad.. Guess what I found . One “investor” who owned over 100 properties within a 5 mile radius also owned a Mortgage Company. These properties were many time purchased by him in his own name sold to unknowledgeable buyer and financed by his Mortgage Company (another name) and then went back to the lender only to bought again by him for a fraction of what he sold it for and then resold to another unknowledgeable buyer. Then the process starts all over again… Stop this behavior and maybe we all will still have a job!

Texas two step l/o : (October 14, 2009 8:12am)

I am not sure why names are being called - Frank becomes Scum if he has a different approach than you like? Here is my first issue with HVCC : I get a refinance application from a client and long term friend. He gives me an expected value he arrived at from two sources - the county tax roll and his current lender. This value is 545k. Zillow gives me 534+ I need 508k for the refinance to work. I order the appraisal through the lender's AMC and it comes back in at 475k - using comps that have major issues - one is on a major busy street with a minor adjustment, one 20 percent different in size and one is over 6 months old. At this point, I and my broker go back to trusted appraisers to help with better comps to rebutt this value - between them - they come up with 8 more similar comps which support a value between 535 and 545. The original appraiser is asked to reconsider his value taking the newly provided comps into consideration. He stands by his value with no comments as to why he chose to use his comps versus the ones provided by the two local appraisers. BTW - this AMC appraiser was from three counties over in a major metropolitan area. The two local guys have no common communication or relationships. My customer is having to pay for another appraiser and I am having to move the loan to another lender and lose a very good rate, spend twice the time and deliver a much more complicated and elongated loan experience. HVCC made this a mess and HERA made it take an extra 10-14 days with the new disclosure delays. In talking to my peers- we are all working twice as hard for 1/2 the money and it is no fun.

EdC: (October 14, 2009 8:10am)

Sorry all you hard line appraisers that think your work is inviolate - big news, it's not. Everyone is ripping off our data and amc u/w's are forcing off-market and reo comps into the reports. The profession has been ho'd out and it's our own fault. Why? Because as long as the lender chooses the appraiser there will be plenty of skippies ready willing and able to jump at the bait of continued work for getting any value needed. The only way to take pressure out of the equation is to remove the lender as client. How about make the homeowner the client. We get paid at the door, it's not recurring work from the same "lender" and we get hired by local reputation. That's my take/solution. As long as the loan process is in the hands of the few it will be corrupted and the corruptible will be the ones to benefit. Further, How can a phone comp check be considered violating anything? Is it recorded or is your conscience so clean that you just can't live with yourself if you did one?? You're hores about everything else but this is a stickler? Wow. I did them and you want to know why? It weeded out the good from the bad brokers and most importantly, it saved the homeowner, that in many cases could not afford $400, to not lose all that $400 that could be better spent on healthcare or on their kids or fixing their broken down truck when the value wasn't there. Any of you hard line appraisers going to report me to the state board for a phone conversation? That's a joke. 2 RELO appraisals have to come within 5% of each other. That is why they hire and pay for the best out there. They don't want to waste time or money with a skippy that doesn't know what they're doing and have to pay for a 3rd appraisal. If 2 appraisers aren't within 5% of each other look for outside influences - no joke, or for a lack of skill and experience in one of the 2 appraisers. As long as the ones with the money control the loan process we're going to be pimped out despite our best intentions. Change will only occur when we get rid of the lender as client. Ideally we'd never do comp checks but practically it makes sense to considering the competitive environment to obtain continued work from the 5 too big to fail (too big to exist imo) lenders. I really can't stand those self-centered self-serving appraisers that complain about doing comps checks after they've done them. Did someone force you to? No. Stop crying about it just because you didn't get the job. Look at what you saved the homeowner from - you should be glad! It's good karma and consumer friendly. 20 years appraisal experience and I only worked with honest, ethical brokers. Yes Dorothy, they do exist.

appraiserchick: (October 14, 2009 8:08am)

Wow, so many comments from both good and bad LO's and good and bad appraisers. Getting "Value" is definitely not the correct term. Reaching a reasonable market value as defined by "The most probable price a dwelling will sell for on the open market when both a knowledgeable buyer and seller are involved." The problem is a lot of times there is not both. The majority of the population knows more about buying a car than they do about buying a home. HVCC has allowed the "bad" appraisers who never got work from the good mortgage brokers or the local banks that are apt to keep their loans in house and risk loss are still able to get work by continuing to work for buck! A much lower buck but a buck just the same. They think that if they put these ridiculous declining adjustments on sales that are less than 3 months old with reasonable DOM (less than 60) and fewer listings than sales...they won’t get reviewed and can claim they are being diligent. They obviously are still not analyzing the market. They are allowing the national norm to analyze for them so they don’t have to. I have worked for local banks for over 10 years now and while some have been forced to use AMC’s they are still using my company due to turn around time and reputable appraisals even if they do not “get value”. They are responsible for the loss. If mortgage brokers were held more liable for their losses maybe they wouldn’t shop appraisals. And yes..I do know a little about being a mortgage broker, my husband had his own company for 10 years before becoming a AE for a lender that is now out of business! (They were owned by AIG). I never did work for any of his clients or for his company prior to that!!! I did not want to have any part of it and I still got all the business I could handle. Fortunately I live in a market of many small banks and Credit Unions that are not forced to utilize an AMC and will make more this year than I have in the past! I know who the appraisers are who will “hit value” and they are the ones now working for the AMC’s and now those same LO’s are out business. I have even reviewed HUD appraisals where the management company sent an appraiser 180 miles to our area to do an appraisal. Guess what..he didn’t even go in the dwelling..out of 21 comps on 3 appraisals not one comp photo was of the correct house and things like a downed power line in the back yard were over looked!! This was on a HUD appraisal…where safety counts! The management company did not want to pay the going fee for an REO appraisal from someone FHA approved in the area so they got him!! Maybe HVCC should take a look at how an ERC appraisal is completed. 2 appraisals that if don’t come in within 5% of each others determined probable sales price then a 3rd is ordered. They pay good fees for these and generally get a quality report. And guess what you get graded!!! A report every month that shows the actual sales price vs your determined probable sales price. Please note the term is “probable sales price”…even they know that in today’s market that may not always be Market Value. And if you aren’t close…you don’t get work! If we were all graded on our actual quality and not volume…then the volume would soon come…Trust me..I will make over 6 figures this year doing quality appraisals without any AMC’s. Yes some of the work is for lenders that have commercial portfolios of blocks of rental homes that have gone bad.. Guess what I found . One “investor” who owned over 100 properties within a 5 mile radius also owned a Mortgage Company. These properties were many time purchased by him in his own name sold to unknowledgeable buyer and financed by his Mortgage Company (another name) and then went back to the lender only to bought again by him for a fraction of what he sold it for and then resold to another unknowledgeable buyer. Then the process starts all over again… Stop this behavior and maybe we all will still have a job!

Texas two step l/o : (October 14, 2009 8:08am)

I am not sure why names are being called - Frank becomes Scum if he has a different approach than you like? Here is my first issue with HVCC : I get a refinance application from a client and long term friend. He gives me an expected value he arrived at from two sources - the county tax roll and his current lender. This value is 545k. Zillow gives me 534+ I need 508k for the refinance to work. I order the appraisal through the lender's AMC and it comes back in at 475k - using comps that have major issues - one is on a major busy street with a minor adjustment, one 20 percent different in size and one is over 6 months old. At this point, I and my broker go back to trusted appraisers to help with better comps to rebutt this value - between them - they come up with 8 more similar comps which support a value between 535 and 545. The original appraiser is asked to reconsider his value taking the newly provided comps into consideration. He stands by his value with no comments as to why he chose to use his comps versus the ones provided by the two local appraisers. BTW - this AMC appraiser was from three counties over in a major metropolitan area. The two local guys have no common communication or relationships. My customer is having to pay for another appraiser and I am having to move the loan to another lender and lose a very good rate, spend twice the time and deliver a much more complicated and elongated loan experience. HVCC made this a mess and HERA made it take an extra 10-14 days with the new disclosure delays. In talking to my peers- we are all working twice as hard for 1/2 the money and it is no fun.

Ian Coates: (October 14, 2009 8:06am)

Good point Smart Loan. Chuck - I understand the LTV game. It helps foster this screwy system in a way. BTW - appraisers giving value ranges is technically in vioation of USPAP! They could lose their license if the get caught! That's the problem for appraisers to deal with. If appraiser A cannot hit the predetermined value range in the appraisal that they gave to you, they have to make the decision to either be honest with you and piss you off (and maybe lose you as a client), or pump up the appraisal to keep you happy. Pumping the appaisal would obviously violate appraiser rules and they could lose their license. It is a tough decision - eat well or sleep well.

chuck: (October 14, 2009 8:06am)

Sniper you don't get it. When did your personal opinion of a properties value become absolute? Who appointed you God?

Texas two step l/o : (October 14, 2009 8:06am)

I am not sure why names are being called - Frank becomes Scum if he has a different approach than you like? Here is my first issue with HVCC : I get a refinance application from a client and long term friend. He gives me an expected value he arrived at from two sources - the county tax roll and his current lender. This value is 545k. Zillow gives me 534+ I need 508k for the refinance to work. I order the appraisal through the lender's AMC and it comes back in at 475k - using comps that have major issues - one is on a major busy street with a minor adjustment, one 20 percent different in size and one is over 6 months old. At this point, I and my broker go back to trusted appraisers to help with better comps to rebutt this value - between them - they come up with 8 more similar comps which support a value between 535 and 545. The original appraiser is asked to reconsider his value taking the newly provided comps into consideration. He stands by his value with no comments as to why he chose to use his comps versus the ones provided by the two local appraisers. BTW - this AMC appraiser was from three counties over in a major metropolitan area. The two local guys have no common communication or relationships. My customer is having to pay for another appraiser and I am having to move the loan to another lender and lose a very good rate, spend twice the time and deliver a much more complicated and elongated loan experience. HVCC made this a mess and HERA made it take an extra 10-14 days with the new disclosure delays. In talking to my peers- we are all working twice as hard for 1/2 the money and it is no fun.

ANGRY APPRAISER: (October 14, 2009 8:05am)

THATS RIGHT RC APPRAISER: We appraisers had to update USPAP every 2 years and with new updates the HVCC was not needed as USPAP is our BIBLE. Everyone needs to not renew there APPRAISAL INSTITUTE MEMEBERSHIP as they do nothing for APPRAISERS.

appraiserchick: (October 14, 2009 8:05am)

Wow, so many comments from both good and bad LO's and good and bad appraisers. Getting "Value" is definitely not the correct term. Reaching a reasonable market value as defined by "The most probable price a dwelling will sell for on the open market when both a knowledgeable buyer and seller are involved." The problem is a lot of times there is not both. The majority of the population knows more about buying a car than they do about buying a home. HVCC has allowed the "bad" appraisers who never got work from the good mortgage brokers or the local banks that are apt to keep their loans in house and risk loss are still able to get work by continuing to work for buck! A much lower buck but a buck just the same. They think that if they put these ridiculous declining adjustments on sales that are less than 3 months old with reasonable DOM (less than 60) and fewer listings than sales...they won’t get reviewed and can claim they are being diligent. They obviously are still not analyzing the market. They are allowing the national norm to analyze for them so they don’t have to. I have worked for local banks for over 10 years now and while some have been forced to use AMC’s they are still using my company due to turn around time and reputable appraisals even if they do not “get value”. They are responsible for the loss. If mortgage brokers were held more liable for their losses maybe they wouldn’t shop appraisals. And yes..I do know a little about being a mortgage broker, my husband had his own company for 10 years before becoming a AE for a lender that is now out of business! (They were owned by AIG). I never did work for any of his clients or for his company prior to that!!! I did not want to have any part of it and I still got all the business I could handle. Fortunately I live in a market of many small banks and Credit Unions that are not forced to utilize an AMC and will make more this year than I have in the past! I know who the appraisers are who will “hit value” and they are the ones now working for the AMC’s and now those same LO’s are out business. I have even reviewed HUD appraisals where the management company sent an appraiser 180 miles to our area to do an appraisal. Guess what..he didn’t even go in the dwelling..out of 21 comps on 3 appraisals not one comp photo was of the correct house and things like a downed power line in the back yard were over looked!! This was on a HUD appraisal…where safety counts! The management company did not want to pay the going fee for an REO appraisal from someone FHA approved in the area so they got him!! Maybe HVCC should take a look at how an ERC appraisal is completed. 2 appraisals that if don’t come in within 5% of each others determined probable sales price then a 3rd is ordered. They pay good fees for these and generally get a quality report. And guess what you get graded!!! A report every month that shows the actual sales price vs your determined probable sales price. Please note the term is “probable sales price”…even they know that in today’s market that may not always be Market Value. And if you aren’t close…you don’t get work! If we were all graded on our actual quality and not volume…then the volume would soon come…Trust me..I will make over 6 figures this year doing quality appraisals without any AMC’s. Yes some of the work is for lenders that have commercial portfolios of blocks of rental homes that have gone bad.. Guess what I found . One “investor” who owned over 100 properties within a 5 mile radius also owned a Mortgage Company. These properties were many time purchased by him in his own name sold to unknowledgeable buyer and financed by his Mortgage Company (another name) and then went back to the lender only to bought again by him for a fraction of what he sold it for and then resold to another unknowledgeable buyer. Then the process starts all over again… Stop this behavior and maybe we all will still have a job!

Apprasier: (October 14, 2009 8:04am)

You have to love the poll question, how about just yes its wrong to shop value or no its not wrong to shop value? You ought to be a politician. Hey guys I just looked up "predatory" in webster's and there was a picture of Frank. Hey "Truth", do I know you? Did my fantasy football team whip up on you last weekend?

Truth: (October 14, 2009 8:04am)

Who ever said anyone is shopping for a predetermined value? What they said was they were shopping for an appraiser who actually did their job correctly. If you get an appraisal that is lower than the sales price how can you tell if the appraisal is 100% accurate? Contrary to the "Appraisers are Gods and it's impossible for them to make a misteak" posts I've seen here, appraisers make misteaks all the time! I've had multiple appraisals on many properties, usually due to a relo or a seller and I've seen multiple appraisals come in at exactly the same price and I've seen them come in over $100,000 apart. Back in the day I was a CREA, but I'm a loan officer now. That helps me spot when an appraiser has screwed the pooch. An appraiser who won't talk to the involved parties and ask if they have data that would affect value (and consequently make his/her job easier) is a fool and probably will be an appraisal that will need to be questioned/reviewed/or redone by a real appraiser. And then there's the high and mighty - Godlike - appraisers who will try to baffle people with BS to hide their inadequacies. As an appraiser if you find the value is coming in under the sales price it only makes sense to call and prep the people for the "low" appraisal and to see if you are missing something. Not only does this protect your a$$ from making a misteak but it also helps build good relations with the other parties.

Apprasier: (October 14, 2009 8:02am)

You have to love the poll question, how about just yes its wrong to shop value or no its not wrong to shop value? You ought to be a politician. Hey guys I just looked up "predatory" in webster's and there was a picture of Frank. Hey "Truth", do I know you? Did my fantasy football team whip up on you last weekend?

ANGRY APPRAISER: (October 14, 2009 8:01am)

THATS RIGHT RC APPRAISER: We appraisers had to update USPAP every 2 years and with new updates the HVCC was not needed as USPAP is our BIBLE. Everyone needs to not renew there APPRAISAL INSTITUTE MEMEBERSHIP as they do nothing for APPRAISERS.

Apprasier: (October 14, 2009 8:00am)

You have to love the poll question, how about just yes its wrong to shop value or no its not wrong to shop value? You ought to be a politician. Hey "Truth", do I know you? Did my fantasy football team whip up on you last weekend?

Sniper: (October 14, 2009 7:59am)

Summation: No one gets it! 1. Brokers still want thier value, expect the appraiser to work for free and give it to them, refuse to listen to the regulations appraisers work under because the regs get in the way of getting what they want, and they have no ethics. 2. Many/Most appraisers still want to work for free and have no ethics either. 3. Agents, see brokers above. 4. Everyone suffers from original sin, "Selfishness." It is just simply easier to do the right thing, or we end up here as are now. When will we all learn? Off to court! See someone there :)

ANGRY APPRAISER: (October 14, 2009 7:57am)

THATS RIGHT RC APPRAISER: We appraisers had to update USPAP every 2 years and with new updates the HVCC was not needed as USPAP is our BIBLE. Everyone needs to not renew there APPRAISAL INSTITUTE MEMEBERSHIP as they do nothing for APPRAISERS.

EdC: (October 14, 2009 7:52am)

Sorry all you hard line appraisers that think your work is inviolate - big news, it's not. Everyone is ripping off our data and amc u/w's are forcing off-market and reo comps into the reports. The profession has been ho'd out and it's our own fault. Why? Because as long as the lender chooses the appraiser there will be plenty of skippies ready willing and able to jump at the bait of continued work for getting any value needed. The only way to take pressure out of the equation is to remove the lender as client. How about make the homeowner the client. We get paid at the door, it's not recurring work and we get hired by local reputation. That's my take/solution. As long as the loan process is in the hands of the few it will be corrupted and the corruptible will be the ones to benefit. Further, How can a phone comp check be considered violating anything? Is it recorded or is your conscience so clean that you just can't live with yourself if you did one?? You're hores about everything else but this is a stickler? Wow. I did them and you want to know why? It weeded out the good from the bad brokers and most importantly, it saved the homeowner, that in many cases could not afford $400, to not lose all that $400 that could be better spent on healthcare or on their kids or fixing their broken down truck when the value wasn't there. Any of you hard line appraisers going to report me to the state board for a phone conversation? That's a joke. 2 RELO appraisals have to come within 5% of each other. That is why they hire and pay for the best out there. They don't want to waste time or money with a skippy that doesn't know what they're doing and have to pay for a 3rd appraisal. If 2 appraisers aren't within 5% of each other look for outside influences - no joke, or for a lack of skill and experience in the appraiser. As long as the ones with the money control the process we're going to be pimped out despite our best intentions. Change will only occur when we get rid of the lender as client. 20 years appraisal experience and kicked to the curb.

what a bunch of sleezeballs...: (October 14, 2009 7:51am)

shopping appraisers for a pre-determined value and utilizing the one who "fits" your need is unethical, injurious to the market, and violates regulations set forth by FannieMae and USPAP. Those who continue to do "comp checks", both the appraiser and those asking for it,should be prosecuted and removed from their prospective industries..... Shouldn't you be more inclined to find the most qualified, thorough, honest, and integritous local appraisal professional that fits within your fee expectations, therefore ensuring your client is NOT mislead and is protected from making an uninformed decision????.....or, is it better to just find the appraiser who will get the "highest value", allowing you to make the most fees, no matter the ramifications of the consumer...

Smart Loan: (October 14, 2009 7:50am)

Appraisals need to have a range of value. How do they come up with the exact sales price anyway? It is amazing to me that congress just waste time and money on stupid laws that do nothing but complicate matters. I guess that is how they stay in office. Screw things up then make new laws to fix the things they screwed up in the first place. These law makers do not have the working knowledge of the industries that they are regulating. Killing whole industries with a stroke of a pen is a travesty.

chuck: (October 14, 2009 7:48am)

Ian- It's not that I don't understand the rules for appraisers.I do understand the rules. It's not that I was trying to push my appraisers for value, but I certainly understand that each appraiser is going to have a different opinion. I never asked for an exact amount. That would be impossible without you seeing the property. I generally did most of my write ups in the clients home and was able to give the appraiser a pretty good idea of condition. I would ask for a range based on square footage and condition. And yes when I called 3 different appraisers I would get 3 different ranges. Appraising isn't an exact science. Of course I would use the appraiser who gave me the highest range. You have to understand OUR business. Everything it tied to LTV. Rate, fees, everything is effected by the LTV. I would get beaten by other loan officers if I didn't find the appraiser who's opinion of that particular property wasn't the highest. I generally used 3 different appraisers and in the end they all got about an equal share of my business. No one appraiser ever came in the highest consistently. If shopping around to get my clients the best deal and save them the most money makes me scum. Then I'm proud to be scum

Sniper: (October 14, 2009 7:48am)

Faun. You are also demonstrating the ignorance of your industry. One buyer and one seller do not make a market. The defnition of market value says in brief: the most probable price...bewteen pudent, knowledgable...buyers and seller. Just becasue you have two poeple wanting to buy/sell doesn't mean the others out there would do the same. The appraiser is therefore asked to demonstrate from the "market" what others have done. As we all know, agents aren't agents anymore, as you have demonstrated. They are salesmen. Therefore, buyers and sellers cannot be considered completely knowledgable or ethically represented, so we can't rely on you alone, and we have to rely on all participants to derive our opinions, as instructed by regulation. Its an odds game, and we appraisers hope to get enough ethical sales to wash out the unethical. Our opinion is of "market value" which is derived by "the market" not your buyer and seller only. Unfortunately you are not that special, or you would be able to make every deal close with only your buyers and sellers. See you in court!

Smart Loan: (October 14, 2009 7:46am)

Appraisals need to have a range of value. How do they come up with the exact sales price anyway? It is amazing to me that congress just waste time and money on stupid laws that do nothing but complicate matters. I guess that is how they stay in office. Screw things up then make new laws to fix the things they screwed up in the first place. These law makers do not have the working knowledge of the industries that they are regulating. Killing whole industries with a stroke of a pen is a travesty.

USF Appraisals, LLC: (October 14, 2009 7:45am)

You're steering the number Brian and Frank... Seriously. Worst episode yet. How much time does it take to do an accurate comp check? Five minutes, five hours? It really depends on the complexity of the assignment. If it was five minutes though, you could figure it out yourself and wouldn't be calling us for the comp check (you would just be placing an order). How much money am I making off the comp check? None... How much time am I wasting? Especially if my number is $10K lower than your target goal and you send the request to your next appraiser down the road who is the number hitter. So... you are pretty much saying you're shopping your number on your deals. That is what got us to this point in the first place. If I miss your number enough, eventually the work stops coming from your firm to my firm and it goes to Ned "The Numbe Hitter" Appraiser down the road. His appraisal make look clean on paper (I can write a report that will make a female underwriter cream their panty's), however, there's a difference between honesty and competitive markets. When two educated appraiser's analyze a property, the market says there should be less than a 5% swing at the top end (and I personally think it should be less than 5% myself). I need to seriously start studying for the LSAT's. Our industry has no hope.

CO Bureacrazy Reality: (October 14, 2009 7:43am)

To Midwest THIS ISN'T THE FAULT OF REALTORS, MTG BROKERS OR APPRAISERS....we were just doing our jobs! - Stand back a little, you are looking way too close! The cause of this mess isn't these minor transactional details, it's the scapegoat. Don' forget: 1) Regulators failed to do their job with EXISTING regs re: derivitives, 2) Wall Street ran with the "funny money", wanted NO UNDERWRITING, 3) The resulting collapsed house of cards is being exploited by politicians & bureaucrats who know nothing and there isn't a damned thing you can do about it now except vote correctly next time. (there wasn't a correct vote last time, just for the record) The world is larger than our own personal sphere of experiences. Realize what is happening!!! This is a bare knuckle view of Socialism, the rest of this is just grist and BS. Yes, the Government is bound to mess everything up, that's what they do. Give me one example of successful market tinkering that hasn't instead destroyed the subject....just one! *35+ year RE Broker and 3 year Mtg Broker. (personal prayer - Lord thank you for the new bubble I see coming on the horizon, I promise I won't waste this one. Say hello modified rebate stimulus!)

Apprasier: (October 14, 2009 7:41am)

To comment on why we look at the contract, regardless of what difference it makes, it is actually part of the Fannie Mae appraisal form 1004/1075, and since we have to use that form we must also analyze the sales contract. What I typically look for is the date the contract was signed, seller concessions, anything in the additional provisions paragraph, and what personal property was conveyed in the sale.

Truth: (October 14, 2009 7:39am)

Frank you're wrong APPRAISER isn't the manager of an AMC it's the same guy who's been posting the HVCC'S Great! company line of the Appraisal Institute so it's probably Fred Grubbe

Loanmonarch: (October 14, 2009 7:37am)

With over 20 years in wholesale and retail lending, I fail to see why anyone would construe getting a second opinion of value as unethical. Appraisals are an opinion, and like underwriting, every one varies. Underwriting is a exercise of knowlege and is much an art as a science. As any originator know, give your file to three underwriters and you will get three different sets of conditions and/or income. The problem that resulted in HVCC is not the individual appraiser or loan officer. It is, and was, the banks that didn't properly underwrite the file. In fact, it is interesting to me that the "BANKS" have done such a good job of washing their dirty little hands on the backs of both brokers and appraisers. And, they are getting away with it. Amazing!

John: (October 14, 2009 7:35am)

I'm a Realtor who specializes in short sales. Here's the problem we run into with short sale appraisals when we have VA loans and such. Those are required for VA loans and some lenders actually elect to use an appraiser rather than have a BPO done. Too many part time appraisers out there are simply out of touch with the market. Actual example: I was marketing a property at $99,000 after several months of price reductions due to no interest. We finally had an offer of $94,500 which we submitted. That triggered a VA appraisal. The appraisal came in at $123,000. I explained to the appraiser that we had no bites in the 6 months that it had been listed at $109,900 which is why we dropped into 5 figures in the first place. He basically told me I had no idea what the market value was and his value was good. That was in November. (Lender counterd at like $114,000 they were willing to take. Buyer walked) In May of this year they sold the home on the REO market for $65,000 after spending money on foreclosure, lost interest and capital, holding costs, and approximately $8000 in repairs to get it ready to sell. Who won? Nobody. The bank lost more money than they should have, the appraiser helped us lose even more faith in their abilities as a whole, the initial buyer lost, the original home owner lost and now has a foreclosure on their credit report, and I lost my commission. This happens all the time. Some lenders will require two appraisals nowadays to combat this problem. Just last month we had a dual appraisal on a property the same week by two seperate appraisers. One reached a value of $159,000 while the other reached a value of $183,000. If it's such an accurate method, how can two appraisers be so far off? In this market, they are just guessing. Something is only worth what someone will pay for it. Period.

MEridianshost: (October 14, 2009 7:33am)

Perhaps this shouldn't be illegal?

Faun: (October 14, 2009 7:32am)

I'm a real estate broker and during the appraisal part of the contract, buyers always ask me why the appraiser is provided with a copy of the contract when the appraisal is ordered . . . a darn good question. Until this practice stops, appraisals will never be unbiased. On the other hand, isn't the best determinant of value what a willing buyer will pay and a willing seller will accept? So if the appraisal comes in very low it's obviously a poor opinion of value, especially considering the appraiser knew all along what the buyer and seller had agreed to! Hello people, the appraisal is and always has been for the benefit of the lender, the entity with the most risk in the deal, and clearly, appraisers work for the lender, not the consumer. Which explains why appraisers are so beholden to the lenders, even with HVCC. Only now, the pressure is for low valuation, rather than high valuation as it was only 3 years ago. Appraisals have never been full-proof and no matter what the government does, or the lenders do, or the AMCs do, they won't be the stop-gap that they were intended to be. It's just that simple. The whole appraisal process came out of the S & L crisis of the 80s so it's really too young to have been perfected yet.

Apprasier: (October 14, 2009 7:30am)

Hey Frank, Last time, I am very disappointed in what I have heard and read from you today. I listen and read every morning to try to keep up with new market info and now I wonder just how reliable anything you say is. I can just see you at the table with a prospect, "don't worry about the adjustable rate, the way the market is today you will have so much equity in your home by the time this loan adjusts that you will not only be able to refi, but you can take out that extra equity and buy a new car!!!" "Just sign hear", "oh by the way you understand what an adjustable rate loan is?" errrrrr it's coming, wait for it............here it is..........your SCUM!

Sniper: (October 14, 2009 7:27am)

Not sure who "Team Player"is, but USPAP doesn't say anything about "if it will work." However, it does say that anytime you make an opinion as to a value or range, or a relationship to a numerical benchmark, which means, agree or disagree to, or report a value or value range, you have conducted an appraiser. And if you report that value based on a benchmark, i.e. the LOs requested value, you have done an appraisal. To complete an appraisal without doing a comp check and providing a report, but simply going out to hit his value because you are of the same ilk, then you are predetermining. Either way both are wrong. Therefore, giving a comp check is not giving a comp check, it is giving an appraisal. If you keep a work file and follow Restricted Use requirements, you are probably ok. But why? and Why for free? As we all know, most appraisers are not keeping work files and are not charging for thier time.

Ian Coates: (October 14, 2009 7:27am)

Chuck - you are wrong. I'm not saying that to be ugly towards you. It is not because the appraiser is on a high horse, but because you have no idea what an appraiser is actually supposed to do per their license. And that is not your fault. It is a matter of general ignorance about what appraisers ACTUALLY do. Many appraisers do not fully understand USPAP (and who could! Have you ever seen a copy of USPAP!) And appraisers help foster some of that ignorance by not telling you "no" so they do not alienate their customers. The system of mortgage loans/appraisals is screwy. And car salesmen do not have to follow USPAP rules.

Ian Coates: (October 14, 2009 7:14am)

Mountain guy - RIGHT ON!

Chuck: (October 14, 2009 7:11am)

I used to be in the wholesale auto business. I would buy and sell used car and broker them to auto dealerships. I could put 4 used car managers around the same car and I would get a value difference that could vary by as much as 35%. They were basically "appraising" the car. Of course I would sell it to the used car manager who offered me the most for it. Now as a loan officer why should it be any different that I get more than one "opinion" for the value of my clients home. Get off your high horse Appraiser. An appraisal is just that. An opinion.

Are you kidding me Frank: (October 14, 2009 7:10am)

Frank (and all others who REFUSE to understand)... hate to burst your bubble, but, asking the appraiser to give you a pre-determined value is a violation of both USPAP and FNMA, and is illegal..... Shopping appraisers for a "high value to get your loan done" is unethical.

RC Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 7:08am)

Fellow Appraiser. Have you ever heard of USPAP? I know you have to take a USPAP class every 2 years to maintain your license. And to everyone else, we appraisers have to adhere to USPAP guidelines, or else, even though many times it seems to be against common sense.

Mountain Guy: (October 14, 2009 7:07am)

Fellow appraiser: Sounds like you are a real team player! I would recommend you pick up a copy of the new edition of USPAP. You can do all of us a favor and post the part where it says that letting the client know "if it will work" is not a violation. I must have missed that section last time I was reading the document. The "team player" Appraisers are the problem with the industry. As long as you keep a workfile on every "comp check" you perform you are in compliance. I stopped working for free a long time ago, and I work for full fee and am as busy as I could be now. I haven't let a LO know whether a deal would "work" until they read my report and typically don't ever hear whether or not their loan closes anyhow. See, my job is to be unbiased, that's why Appraiser's exist. My only concern is that my result is credible and supported. Good luck, "team player"!

Ron Burgandy: (October 14, 2009 6:59am)

Frank, how many days in a row you going to wear that shirt?

"see you in court" Appraiser aka: Sniper: (October 14, 2009 6:57am)

Frank, yes you are scum for doing that. You are furthering the problem as well as showing the ignorance of your industry and the lack of concern for doing what is right. But it is expected because everyone suffers from original sin, "Selfishness." By doing what you say is ok, you are asking an appraiser to complete an appraisal per the law/regualtion called USPAP. When they do that for free, they are degarding the profession. I spend time in court cases for this exact thing. I actually look for the opportunity to take out both the broker and the appraiser. We can't change the whole industry with one big swing of the axe, which is what we are seeing right now. The existing regulations/laws in place are enough, but no one enforces them. Therefore, PROFESSIONALS like myself are on the front lines. We have had to change our business model to protect our profession and restore the image that has been destroyed by you asking for predetermined values and appraisers caving to everything. We now take out the bad broker, agent and appraiser, one at a time. I will now change my screen name to "Sniper."

G-Money: (October 14, 2009 6:57am)

To all the Appraisers reading this, you are appreciated and respected in this camp my friends. I have been doing this since 1999 so my experience in this field is unquestioned. Your job is hard and so is ours. It is unfortunate for any appraiser to feel pressure from a broker or originator for fear of losing business to them. It is ridiculus to argue about comp checks and getting value in this day and age anyway because the Lender is going to ulimately determine if the value is credible or not.

Apprasier: (October 14, 2009 6:57am)

So, what "fellow appraiser" is saying, is that he came into a predetermined value before even seeing the property and was able to tell his lenders that he could or could not get value?

Ian Coates: (October 14, 2009 6:55am)

The premise of your video poll totally misses the point! From an appraisers point of view, appraisal shopping is in direct violation with the ethical component of their license, taints the objectivity of the collateral valuation process, and is tantamount to collusion between LO and appraiser! Appraisers simply are not allowed to give predetermined values. Period! Yes - you get different opinions of value from different appraisers. That is a different issue with its own set of problems that is not dependent on the issue of shopping for a predetermined value. Loan officers: please read USPAP to see why appraisers are prohibited from giving predetermined values... thanks.

fellow appraiser: (October 14, 2009 6:52am)

For all of you appraisers currently saying that HVCC and it is the only way keep people from being honest I would just like to applaud you for caving into the pressure before all of this was put into place. This law did not get rid of bad appraisal/appraisers, it has just become a scape goat for the appraiser that could not stand by his opinion of value. My business was doing great and is still doing great because I would tell loan officers whether it was going to or not going to work and never changed my values. I actually gained a good reputation for doing this had much more repeat business than any other appraiser I knew. Frank and Bryan are right and there is nothing wrong with shopping around for a different opinion, but as an appraiser I can't have multiple opinions. So appraisers, make sure to have solid facts to base your values off and stand by them and don't get all pissy when someone else comes in with something different. That's normal! It is not because loan officers were pressuring for higher values that HVCC was put into place it was because appraisers kept on changing values. The problem is with you and our industry caving in to pressure. Take stand and take pride in your work and I bet things will change.

Apprasier: (October 14, 2009 6:51am)

Apparently there are two people using the screen name "Appraiser". I am the appraiser who used the term "SCUM" Here is the problem, and I think Frank and Freddy have made this clear, its not that there unhappy with the quality of the appraisal, their unhappy with the value it came in at? These are absolutely two different issues, if you have poor quality appraisals, (I know there out there) then complain about the QUALITY not the VALUE. If the appraiser did a poor job then you can make an argument the value may be unreliable but if you just complained because the value was not what you wanted it to be then your just complaining. I am not only an appraiser, I am a Real Estate Broker (Realtor) and I have had several deals since the implementation of the HVCC and have had no problem with appraisals, why, because I know what I am doing. Unfortunately, many Real Estate Brokers don't know howto correctly comp their listing, hey, its a 3 week class to become a Real Estate expert so what do you expect.

dbpete: (October 14, 2009 6:51am)

Hey guys, I hate the HVCC and I didn't like the rules before that much either. When I wanted an appraisal, I called a competent, polite, prompt appraiser who had a reasonable pricing. I asked for an appraisal of a property at 333 Home Street. As often as possible, I did not send the contract until the appraiser asked for it. That is the way to get a true value. However, the rules state that they must see the contract. I always asked why. They are looking at value and it is not connected to the contract. All they need to know is if there are any concessions. Frankly, they don't need to know that. The lender will consider the concessions outside of the contract, so they shouldn't have had a contract to determine value. Since they were required to have a contract, don't you think that had as much influence on the value result as anything? In the normal times, I rarely ever saw an appraisal come in at any significant number less than the ocntract price. In fact, I don't remember a single time in normal times. The value would often come in a few hundred, possibly a few thousand (less than 1 or 2%) higher. While the appraiser determines the value of a property at any given time, it is also somewhat subjective. The value of a house is also flavored by the amount a normal buyer is willing to pay. if the buyer is willing to pay $100,000 and nearby comps of similar - never exact- houses come in at 90, maybe the good condition or the extras are enough to justify. Regardless, a swing of 10% is well within boundaries. Perhaps the lenders should be required to allow a value up to 10% higher since there is no way an appraiser can possibly get a bullseye number every time. (unless you are talking a cookie cutter condo with no changes since being built) I have asked an appraiser his rough opinion of value before. If he really knew the neighborhood, I would trust the one minute assessment. I did not use that to shop the appraisal. I used it to determine if I would front the money for the appraisal. If he thought it was way on the low side, I was not about to fork out $300 bucks and then have the borrower walk with me holding the bag. I also recognized it for what it was. I could not hold him to it if he did the interior inspesction and found disrepair and disfunction or an unexpected neighborhood detriment. Appraisals come in many forms. The same appraiser can have two values for a house on any given day. There's a value if you want to sell it this week and there's a value if you want to sell it within the year. I don't feel bad for asking an occasional opinion of an appraiser. I only used two or three appraisers and the one who got the assignment was the one who could do it on schedule or the one who would accomodate the borrower's pay plan if I chose not to pay for the borrower. Now, that is not a concern. I know that there were appraiser who were shady. Whenever I had a new lender, I asked for their "black list" of appraisers. They would say that there is not a black list, but they would in the same breath tell you to call the review department and run the name through the department. If the appraiser was on the OK list, then they would accept his appraisal. I always thought it was simply a rouse. We call and ask if John Doe appraiser is on the approved list. they check the black list and don't find him, so he is on the approved list. Well, that list was needed. That is all that was needed. Since the lenders would have their desk reviews on most files and some field reviews or second opinions, I don't see how they are screaming at appraisers. They took one opinion, validated it and lent on it. If they agreed that it was a good value, why play these games. The lenders who want to lend will still be playing games. They can still order appraisals from their own pool of appraisers if they are large enough. What about the portfolioi lender like World who had their own staff appraisers? Their values were notoriously lower than normal. Their appraisers made judgment calls on the people by going into the homes. They still went under. Value was not the only problem and it was not the main problem that got us into this mess. It was the sloppy lending (I was a lender) to investors on dozens of properties at once. This created demand, which did raise the price to all. The homeowner was stuck in an upward spiral of pricing that he was anxious to lock at the lowest price possible. Thus the frenzy. Wehn the investors couldn't unload after their two year hold (because the prices were then unaffordable for their first time homebuyer base) they dumped the houses on the market and the prices tumbled. How can appraiser protect against that? not even HVCC could have. We have idiots making rules that strap the hands of the free market and common sense. Checks and balances work best. There's nothing like a black list to keep an appraiser in lline. Mortgage brokers always had to worrry about a black list... they had to be approved by lenders before submitting loans. A clean record meant approval. Keeping your nose clean was a must.

"see you in court" Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 6:48am)

So, you have a lender who send you an appraisal to look at because it didn't hit the value. YOu look at it as a courtesy for them becasue they are a good client and you don't want to get kicked off the list. They you tellt the lender your opinion of the appraisal. Well Corenerstone Kathy, that is called a Reveiw per SR3. You just formed a judgement and delievered an opinion to the quality of another appraiser's work. Did you create a work file? Why are you doing reveiws for free. You are the appraiser who needs to go away, and I hope, I will see in court someday!

HVCC go home: (October 14, 2009 6:48am)

I hate to admit it but the video today merely confirms that just like health care we needed change. Maybe not the change that we are seeing with HVCC but certainly a change. The pressure on a Realtor and Mortgage Originator to “make the deal” is transferred to the Appraiser which causes the problem. This is why god created review appraisals. Make them mandatory on all deals and you’ve got your fix. No need for HVCC, no value shopping, no tears. Two opinions of value will give you your answer.

Frank@TBWS: (October 14, 2009 6:47am)

This is real simple. If a person asks me if I can do a loan and after a quick prequal I feel I can't, and that person then sends their client to another lender for a second opinion, is that person scum? No, they are trying all options. Same with us when we would ask an appraiser if they could hit a value. Are we scum for that? Dang, I hope not.

CornerstoneKathy: (October 14, 2009 6:46am)

Ok Frank you lost me there..shopping value on a comp search ..not good..

BytheNuts: (October 14, 2009 6:44am)

6:43 ByTheNuts: Appraiser: only do your loans through me!! I offer great products & you won't receive a rate over 7%!! Which is historical low!! If you decide to shop me, I'll hunt you down and hang you by the nuts!!!

Ian Coates: (October 14, 2009 6:37am)

Frank - I would seriously like to discuss this with you on the phone. Sounds like your appraiser friends are not giving you the real skinny on what appraisers actually have to contend with per their license rules. And I cannot blame them - they are probably afraid they will lose you as a customer if they are 100% honest with you. Most appraisers play that game to survive.

SCMortgagemaker: (October 14, 2009 6:36am)

To Midwest Appraiser - I don't think any of us are "ignorant" of the appraisal process. Maybe you are ignorant of what we do. We are not necessarily looking for the highest value for our personal gain. Sometimes the difference of $1000 means the difference of a loan or not a loan for our borrower. I think most of us are not out there to simply pressure the appraiser for the highest value. We are also pressured to do something we shouldn't do at times - but you know what ? I don't do it and I bet most of you out there don't either. The apprasier should not be able to use the excuse of being "pressured" to get a value. Maybe be more choosy on who you do business with.

Apprasier: (October 14, 2009 6:35am)

Your point was VERY CLEAR, you shop value to see if you can find an appraiser that will be able to hit the number you want. There is nothing wrong with getting an appraisal done and not agreeing with the value and having another appraiser review that appraisal, there is nothing wrong with showing the appraiser additional data he might not have to help him justify a higher value. Shopping value.........wrong.

Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 6:34am)

Appraisers should lose thier job when they screw up? Is that what I heard? When you listen between the lines, what you all really mean is, if an appraiser screws up (get's market value rather than desired value because we all know that is what is meant when it comes from a mortgage broker) he should lose his job. When are all the mortgage brokers who pressure for value, turn time and slave wage fees going to lose thiers? They are as bad as AMCs because they all want the same thing, cheapest fee, fastest turn time, and to hit the value or your kicked off the list. Oh, yeah, they also want "Comp/Value Checks" for free which per USPAP is an appraisal! I don't work for AMCs or Mortgage Brokers because they all want the same thing: "Poor Quality Prostitute Box Checking Appraisers" who are terrible businessmen turning in appraisals not worth the paper they are written on with majority of the liability for a fee you can make at Walmart. If you don't get what they want, you have more trouble than its worth and make nothing off the job due to having to field phone calls, emails, faxes, all with complaints or addendum requests. The statement should be, "Get rid of all the box checking appraisers, AMCs and Mortgage Brokers." Well, its coming! Did you know that lenders, brokers and agents can be turned into the IVPI? Did you know that AMCs can be regulated by the Feds because they provide a service to a federally regulated institution? The near future will be very interesting with all new rules and regulations coming. See you in court!

Ian Coates: (October 14, 2009 6:30am)

Frank - you can ask for a predetermined value all day long. What you re missing is that appraisers are required per their license to NOT tell you a predetermined value. Appraisers violate this rule all the time and could/should be punished by their licensor for it. But that rarely happens (maybe never).

Mountain Guy: (October 14, 2009 6:28am)

Frank, you are missing the point. By asking the Appraiser to tell you if the value is attainable, you are asking them to violate the ethics guidelines they are required to follow. They are not allowed by USPAP to suggest to you whether or not the value can be reached prior to the assignment.

Frank@TBWS: (October 14, 2009 6:23am)

I guess we weren't clear. We would NEVER ORDER multiple appraisals - duh. But would "call" and ask if the needed value was attainable. If not, then hell yes we would ask another appraiser. And it is very similar to us getting a call and being asked if we could do a tough loan. If we said NO, the deal went somewhere else even if it was one of our main referral partners asking. The point was that just because we ask for other opinions doesn't mean we're SCUM!

realestatehawk: (October 14, 2009 6:21am)

It would be one thing if an appraiser were contacted to ask what his/her fees were for a particular assignment. This would be similar to someone asking a broker/lender what their rate was. Asking for a value is a violation of USPAP. If someone wants market data for a given neighborhood, we will gladly send that to them. The fact that someone should "shop" appraisers until they find the value they want is part of the reason we are dealing with HVCC. If you are truly dealing with "honest appraisers", then I am certain that if they are all competent in a given market, their final estimate of value would be quite similar. I do agree that the laws/guidelines that we had in place should have been enforced all along.

realestatehawk: (October 14, 2009 6:20am)

It would be one thing if an appraiser were contacted to ask what his/her fees were for a particular assignment. This would be similar to someone asking a broker/lender what their rate was. Asking for a value is a violation of USPAP. If someone wants market data for a given neighborhood, we will gladly send that to them. The fact that someone should "shop" appraisers until they find the value they want is part of the reason we are dealing with HVCC. If you are truly dealing with "honest appraisers", then I am certain that if they are all competent in a given market, their final estimate of value would be quite similar. I do agree that the laws/guidelines that we had in place should have been enforced all along.

Mountain Guy: (October 14, 2009 6:19am)

Cornerstone: You realize per USPAP that by agreeing with or disagreeing with the value on a report you review you are also performing an appraisal, I hope you are being compensated and keeping workfiles on those deals you help your client with. In the end it's a business decision, but....just sayin'.

RC45: (October 14, 2009 6:14am)

As an appraiser, I am all for any comparables and information that anyone can give me about my subject property. It helps me in the final reconciliation of value. As for getting a second appraisal. I am all for that to. If a property and comparables are fully investigated by both parties a similar range of adjusted values should be ascertained. Now in that range according to the appraisers knowledge and experience comes into play as to the final value and this may vary with in that range. So to say any two appraisers will hit the same value is unlikely. But the range should be very close. I do field reviews in my practice for FHA/USDA/ and the secondary markets. Unless my research shows over a five percent difference I normally don't disagree with there value if they have explained in the report how they calculate there adjustments and how they ascertained the final value (as long as what they have explained is credible). I also state that (if my value is different) my calculatinons may differ but would not have changed the value by more than xxx amount of dollars and that I would agree with his value from the information I found and from the information he has provided. As with any profession There are good appraisers and bad appraisers as well as loan officers and brokers. THe problem we have is the bad loan officers and brokers usually team up with the bad appraisers and we wind up in the shape we are in today with the housing market and the HVCC, and on the flip side ethical loan officers usually use ethical appraisers that give good service and good accurate oppinions of value. I had an instructor many years ago when I got in this business tell me some good advice. The first time you get talked into hitting a value you better expect to continue doing it because you have made a name for yourself in that area, and this is what will be expected from you, so dont start. He also stated there are several diffent types of appraisals and they are as follows. good appraisals, fast appraisals, cheap appraisals, and you can combine any two you want. but know this, a good fast appraisal won't be cheap, a good cheap appraisal won't be fast, and a cheap fast appraisal won't be anygood. Everyone have a good and blessed day.

Mountain Guy: (October 14, 2009 6:14am)

Laurie: That is the HVCC at work for you. There is no shortage of incompetence in the world of the AMC appraiser. I would wager to say that the appraiser who failed to consider the contract in their analysis (per Fannie guidelines), probably took home about $250 of the $480 the borrower paid. This thing is a mess right now, I don't think giving the Appraisal community (overall) a pay cut is going to be much incentive for more quality and thorough appraisals in the near term. AMCs are helping to make this industry even more of a mess than it was when so many were pushing values up.

Ian Coates: (October 14, 2009 6:14am)

Kudos to APPRAISER for standing up for yourself. I still highly regard Frank and Brian, they are entitled to get things wrong every once in a while. This is a complex issue. This is the appraisers' chance to educate and demonstrate where the disconnect is between originator and appraiser. I think that LO's forget that it is ethically wrong from the appraisers perspective to shop for an appraisal value when their commission check is on the line. I invite Frank and Brian to call me so that we can discuss the differences in the interests of the appraiser vs. loan originator. They are not aligned, but that does not mean that appraisers and LO's are adversaries either.

CornerstoneKathy: (October 14, 2009 6:11am)

I am surprised my fellow appraisers!! Maybe I just heard what they are saying differently. We sit here everyday bashing other appraisers work and yet you have never seen it from the other angle? I have had many loan officers send me another appraisers work to see if I agreed with the value. I dont think they are shopping for another higher appraisal, they are double checking that the work was good and correct before they kill a deal. If I didnt agree with what a doctor said I would certainly get a second opinion..that doesnt mean that I will go to every doctor until one says yeah thats not cancer just so I have finally heard what I wanted to hear. Many times in my area I know about a sale that maybe was in a different MLS or was a clean FSBO that could have been used. I dont offer to do the report myself ..but I would..I give those comps to the LO so he can try to work it out for himself. Its just good service to my loan officers. What sucks about HVCC is that LO is not able to say you know what Kathy really has knowledge it this local area and I would like to send this to her because she proved to me in the past that she understands that area. Appraisers I think you are jumping the gun on this one from our past experiences.

Laurie: (October 14, 2009 6:07am)

For all of you who think that the values "should come in around the same" since they have access to the same data...here's one for you. I had an appraisal done by my preferred appraiser. He charged $325 for the inspection and his appraisal came in at $255,000. (He got it to me in about 3 business days). The sales price was $249,000. BUT, since the owner (a bank foreclosure) had their Certificate of Title incorrectly recorded, the lender didn't like the title seasoning and asked for a 2nd appraisal. The buyer then paid $480 for the 2nd appraisal to come in at $210,000. AND GET THIS.....BOTH APPRAISERS USED THE SAME COMPARABLES!!!! Since one of the comparables was sold 4 months earlier, my preferred appraiser gave an adjustment of $5,700. The AMC appraiser gave an adjustment of $38,700. Really? Every adjustment she made to the good was minimized and to the bad was overkill. Then the AMC appraiser gave no adjustment to the subject property's tile roof, fully gated 2.5 acres of land, and then added a cost-to-cure to the appraisal because she couldn't open an attic door since a cabinet was in the way. (My appraiser moved the cabinet over). The end result....we filed a rebuttle. They would not accept our letter. We had to file the rebuttle on their form and the only reasoning they would let us use was "comparable closer in proximity" which wasn't the case, since both appraisers used the same comps! So we had to get the boss of the boss of the person in charge, blah blah blah, and they ended up changing their "opinion" to $220K. Since the foreclosing bank (and everybody else) knew that the house was worth every bit of $249K, they wouldn't go down much further in their sales price, so the buyer had to bring the difference to closing. And what is most amazing....is that the only reason a 2nd appraisal was asked for was because of how the title was recorded. We never had any field review, management review...NOTHING on the appraisal from my preferred appraiser. It was reviewed by the underwriter and never questioned. When the appraiser called to schedule the appraisal 3 days after we ordered it (in Florida), she asked me to fax the contract and I faxed it up to a company in Ohio. From the time we ordered the appraisal (by the way the file was clear to close when we ordered the appraisal) to the time we received it was 7 business days. Since my appraiser is fair, he doesn't stretch and he isn't over-conservative, if he does not think a property holds a certain value, I do not find another appraiser, I have by buyers find another house. Or if it is a refinance (which we don't get to do much of here), then I have to turn it down. To me, there is no need for HVCC. If my appraiser tells me something will not appraise, I assume it will not and if I get an appraiser who will get the value, it will most likely get reviewed and cut in underwriting, and I'm not interested in wasting my time or my client's money.

See it all before: (October 14, 2009 6:00am)

"Once a number it presented to the Appraiser (ie "do you think this one could be worth $200K", or "we're looking for $200K on this one, can you do a quick look up?"), the waters have become muddied and the liklihood of the Appraiser coming up with a value that is accurate and not influenced by the process becomes less likely." That one REALLY hits home. I have an LO who calls me like this all of the time. I'll look up an address, give her the assessment data and the sales range for the past year per the MLS. She can draw her own conclusions and I am not providing any estimate of value. DID I MENTION THAT SHE'S ON THE STATE APPRAISAL BOARD? The problem with appraisers is that they don't have the balls to say no to walmart fees. When you can make more money as a walmart greeter why the hell are you staying in the appraisal business?

Apprasier: (October 14, 2009 5:58am)

pay attention to what Midwest Appraiser just posted!!!

NJ Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 5:58am)

Value DOES NOT EQUAL the highest possible number you could stretch out, yet you'll shop the that appraiser who gives you the most so you can make more. It just goes to show how this all boils down. THe LO's want to keep pushing and are not about to stop so it's up to the appraisers. They are being weeded out because it certainly is not as profitable as it once was!

Midwest Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 5:56am)

You guys are great but are looking at this from a loan officers perspective and are actually showing your ignorance to the appraisal process. Any value given either VERBALLY or WRITTEN is considered an appraisal and the appraiser needs to have a workfile and demonstrate due diligence in developing it and can be held liable for the conclusions. If you want to order (and pay for) 5 different appraisals and use the one that comes in the highest I have no problem with it. That is called "shopping". I believe what your referring to is called "shopping for a pre determined value". Calling all the appraisers on your list and asking them what is the highest value they can get on a particular property. This is the reason for the whole HVCC. Most LOs are completely uneducated as the actual rules appraisers are held to and is the reason mortgage brokers pressured appraisers for value.

Apprasier: (October 14, 2009 5:55am)

I am the appraiser who wrote that blog, and I can not believe what I just heard come out of your mouths. That is the exact reason why I was calling you guys scum! Not only have you miss quoted me but you also have put words in my mouth and also insinuated that I am an AMC owner? Really? I have lost a lot of respect for you guys today and I wonder if all the info you have shared with us in the past is reliable. For those of you that did not read my post, many of the statement that Frank and Arnold made today are absolutely incorrect. And from an ethical stand point, are you really looking out for your client who might be paying too much for the property he is about to buy? or do you even care? Lastly for the blogger who wanted to know about pressure, a few years back I was asked to comp a home that had a contract price of 360K so in order to keep my client happy I did look at the neighborhood for him and found no sales over 310K and no comparable sales (of which there were plenty) that supported that value so I did not get the assignment, he told me later that he had found an appraiser who made it work but he had to use comparables from another neighborhood, so you tell me is that lender who knew there was no support for the contract value in that neighborhood unethical when he let another appraiser who used comps from a different market area? I guess we all have to eat, huh? And yes, there is and probably always will be some type of pressure on appraisers to hit value, I still see it for FHA.

Midwest Appraiser: (October 14, 2009 5:53am)

You guys are great but are looking at this from a loan officers perspective and are actually showing your ignorance to the appraisal process. Any value given either VERBALLY or WRITTEN is considered an appraisal and the appraiser needs to have a workfile and demonstrate due diligence in developing it and can be held liable for the conclusions. If you want to order (and pay for) 5 different appraisals and use the one that comes in the highest I have no problem with it. That is called "shopping". I believe what your referring to is called "shopping for a pre determined value". Calling all the appraisers on your list and asking them what is the highest value they can get on a particular property. This is the reason for the whole HVCC. Most LOs are completely uneducated as the actual rules appraisers are held to and is the reason mortgage brokers pressured appraisers for value.

Rondon: (October 14, 2009 5:48am)

Brian - enforcing the existing laws sounds great on paper, but for these clowns, making new laws and regulations is their life blood. It looks like Cuomo and HVCC might have achieved one of its objectives - "divide and conquer". It's all part of the "nanny state" - treating us like children. They've reduced some of us to fighting like school kids.

EastCoastAppraiser: (October 14, 2009 5:47am)

Mortgage people shop appraisers. I dont think any appraiser that has a hide thicker than 1/16 inch would be offended. The ones who complain (about pressure) are big baby's. Get over it, its been going on since the beginning, it going to continue to happen. You dont have to have a yellow spine. Nothing new under the sun, Right? THe hvcc, Its going to be a business opportunity for some and other will go by the wayside. So Is life, you must evolve or you species will die. Im sure I will be looking at less appraiser in 2011-2012. I just renewed my E&O and the carrier said renewals were down 15%. Ill miss you guys and gals, it was nice working with you. You will be missed.

Ian Coates: (October 14, 2009 5:45am)

I really think you guys missed it this time! I am shocked - Frank, I thought you really understood what appraisers are up against. This is the problem with the mortgage industry - nobody understands what appraisers ACTUALLY have to do per license requirements, and what they are prohibited from doing. Value shopping/predetermining a value is UNETHICAL from the APPRAISER'S point of view. How can the appraiser be UNBIASED if they know they are in a bidding war for the highest number? HOW?!!! This is where knowing your appraiser and their work ethic is valuable to the loan officer. The ONLY good thing in the HVCC is that "comp checks" are prohibited - now, this does not help the originator put together his deal, but that is NOT the appraiser's concern. (Nothing personal between appraiser/originator - this is just the way it is.) Originators are going to have to deal with this and figure out a way to do their own comp checks. The competition is NOT between who can get the highest value, it is who can offer the highest QUALITY appraisal services at a competitive price.

Mountain Guy: (October 14, 2009 5:45am)

The only beef I have with today's show is that "comps" and "shopping" an appraisal is not legal. How can a competent Appraiser give a client an accurate estimate of the value of a property which they have never been in. Once an appraiser gives an opinion of what a property is worth, that in itself is an Appraisal. Even if it's verbal. Just for fun, read the Appraiser's certification (that's the boring part of the report between where you see the value line and the signature page of the report). Pay special attention to #18. You will find this in EVERY appraisal report you receive which has a value. By signing the report, the Appraiser agrees that this and all of the other conditions set forth (there are 25 of them) are true. I'll paste it so you don't have to go to the trouble of opening a report of your own: "My employment and/or compensation for performing this appriasal or any future or anticipated appraisals was not conditioned on any agreement or understanding, written or otherwise, that I would report (or present analysis supporting) a predetermined specific value, a predetermined minimum value, a range or direction in value, a value that favors the cause of any party, or the attainment of a specific result or occurrence of a specific subsequent event (such as approval of a pending loan application). EVERY time an Appraiser submits a report, they are agreeing that this statement is true. If it is proven that this statement is not true or accurate, the Appraiser is on the hook and can be dragged into court, fined or even lose thier license. Hopefully, this helps some of you who are in other ends of the business understand why Appraisers get their hackles up when they are asked for "comps". Although most of you have "read" hundreds if not thousands of appraisal reports in your years in the business, I would wager that few have ever bothered to read the "boiler plate" conditions in the middle of the form. Appraising is a very challenging job (when done correctly), especially in the current marketplace, and the exposure to liability for the Appraiser lasts for many years after the loan commission (or appraisal fee) has been spent. These rules probably seem like splitting hairs to those of you who are not Appraisers, and it might sound like as an Appraiser I am making a big deal out of "one little rule", but the rules tend to become a much bigger deal when someone winds up in court. Once a number it presented to the Appraiser (ie "do you think this one could be worth $200K", or "we're looking for $200K on this one, can you do a quick look up?"), the waters have become muddied and the liklihood of the Appraiser coming up with a value that is accurate and not influenced by the process becomes less likely.

Jersey Girl: (October 14, 2009 5:38am)

I cannot believe ANY appraiser would be in favor of the HVCC...it is a joke and makes me want to vomit. I STILL get calls about value from a LO who has been forced to use an AMC...so what is the freakin point? Brian & Frank: If someone is seeking an estimate of value and it can be supported by the most similar sales available, then why not. The problem is, we are often asked to determine value before we even see the property we are asking to appraise. You have no idea how many time I've been given a summary of a property with a list of improvements, details, style, etc. and get to the house and it is NOT even close to the info we were given. It's like one of your relatives telling you she wants to set you up with a gorgeous looking hottie on a blind date and when you get there, she looks like Mabel- no offense Frank ;)

Appraising 25+ years: (October 14, 2009 5:35am)

"Appraiser didn't get value." PLEASE! I may be the exception (which I doubt) but if a contract price looks like a problem, I always ask the agent for their market value. (If something doen't "get value" they rarely ask for a reconsideration because I've already reviewed their sales - less work for me.) Most of the time what they call a CMA is nothing more than MLS print out of everything that has sold ABOVE the contract price. Twice the size as the subject - not a problem. The LO can just shop around for an appraiser who can "get value. THAT IS TOTAL BS AND YOU KNOW IT IS. It is NOT the same as asking a lender what his rates are. Let's go back to lending 125%, no need to bother to check credit either. Hell, let's just ask the seller what the property is worth. We all know that appraisers don't know anything. I've been appraising long enough that I've been through TWO melt downs. I'm sick and tired of being accused of being the problem for inflating value AND for not "getting value."

TD Hawk: (October 14, 2009 5:30am)

"Getting a second opinion" versus "shopping for a value" is a slippery slope we could debate all day, which boils down to the personal ethics of the practitioners. I think we can ALL agree the AMCs are effed up. H.V.C.C. would work better if the appraisal orders came via a channel that was totally independent, like maybe a regulator who could monitor and track complaints from the participants. Think of the new AMC as a referee that answers to a higher judicial body similar to how real estate boards work in many states.

BOBBI LOAN OFFICER: (October 14, 2009 5:27am)

I feel for everyone of us , LOAN OFFICER, APPRASIERS AND REALTORS. THIS HAS BEEN A BITCH. NOT TRUE ABOUT THE PERSON WHO SAYS WE DIDN'T GET THE VALUE WE WANTED. I HAVE NEVER NEVER ASKED MY APPRAISER TO DO ANYTHING ILLEGAL. SOOOO VERY TRUE APPRAISERS DO VARY AND WHY NOT NOT EVERYONE DOING THESE JOBS IS A MENTAL GIANT INCLUDING LOAN OFFICERS. HVCC ALLOWS PEOPLE TO GO WHERE THEY ARE COMPLETLY UNFAMILIAR AND HOW ABOUT LAZY.

Lee Aldo State Cert FL.: (October 14, 2009 5:20am)

Not only are our fees cut (Im finally getting work from the 100 or so AMCs ive signed up for, only about 1 per week) wheres the money......havent seen a check in over a month! Makes you want to put your best foot forward doesnt it.....

North Jersey: (October 14, 2009 5:17am)

Guys...."If the appraiser didn't get VALUE"... Do you mean they didn't get the value you wanted? I'm actually suprised at you. Up until you guys went off on this I watched every day, but it's just that thinking that minimizes the importance of the appraisal. No we don't dust off and get a value, BUT, any 2 appraisers should be expected to come very close. I'm not in favor of HVCC by any means but it's the attitute that if one appraiser does not come in where you want by doing a comp check you move to the next one. Isn't that what contributed to the current problems?

Jeff Launiere: (October 14, 2009 5:11am)

I actually had one appraiser who said the same thing. I was going to give him some comps and he said keep them. I said fine, and then he went on to say that he loves HVCC due to the fact that none of you Realtors, lenders or anyone can influence him to falsify appraisals anymore. I said did you previously falsify appraisals and he said he was influenced into giving a value higher than its actual value. My thinking is if he could get pressured into falsifying appraisals he likely should be in jail. I also offered to take him through the gated communities that will not allow appraisers through unless they are with a Realtor. He declined but then in his appraisal it stated could not get into the gated subdivisions to personally see the comps. It was interesting as it was on a short sale. I had a buyer a couple of weeks before who was going to offer cash and had a private appraisal done. It came to $545,000. The buyer wanted to offer $400,000 which the seller rejected. The lender had just done an appraisal through an AMC and it was $572,000. I almost immediately got an offer for $525,000 and thought I was very safe at that figure. The appraiser that loves HVCC came in at $505,000. The lender ended up accepting the $505,000 but I find it interesting the vast difference in amounts between three appraisers all within a period of less than a month. The other two appraisers put that the prices have stabilized in the area, while this appraiser put it as declining. The other two appraisers had put that although the most comparable homes were in another subdivision, that subdivision is so different are too far from Tampa Bay to use. The third appraiser said that was the best subdivision. It was also funny that the third appraiser used one comp which was one of my sales. For that one he wrote that the interior was far superior, along with quality of construction being superior on this comp. The funny thing is the buyer of this comp needed to have the kitchen and bathrooms remodeled and had to replace carpet. The subject property needed none of this. As far as quality of construction, the subject and comp were built by the same custom home builder. I spoke to him and actually the subject property had much more upgrades but construction quality were equal. I have now had two appraisals done by the same appraiser. Both of them he gave the most weight to the lowest priced comp and both gave the value as a couple thousand over the lowest comp. I agree with you guys that HVCC has just caused many of the appraisers to take the lowest possible value. I have also found they no longer do much research. As a Realtor, when I do a CMA I have already seen the homes before they sold, or if not I call the listing or buyer's agents to see if there were any issues I should know about. As a listing agent and buyer's agent I used to get phone calls on a regular basis from appraisers asking me about the home that sold. Since HVCC I have not received one call from an appraiser. Unfortunately, it now seems that we have a more adversarial relationship. I used to be able to give comps to appraisers along with some information about those I had special information about, such as that comp had mold or soil settlement issues, or even that the owner or vandals of that comp had ripped out the kitchen or had destroyed the carpets and tile floors. Now probably 9 out of 10 appraisers do not want to know, and it is obvious by the appraisal that they never did any research as they will often show the condition as superior when we know it is not. I now have appraisers coming from more than two hours away and they have never done an appraisal in the area. When I have a listing in a neighborhood, I have previewed every possible home in that area and have a knowledge of the pros and cons. That should be valuable information to any appraiser, but since HVCC many appraisers treat us as the enemy. We should not be, after all if I say that house had mold issues the appraiser should still contact the listing or buyers agent to confirm that I am telling the truth, but at least I gave them information that could be important for them to know, especially since many of the appraisers have not seen any of the homes in the neighborhood.

Way2Lucky: (October 14, 2009 5:10am)

Prior to HVCC, I worked with one appraiser for 90% of my deals. I used him not due to his values that he would bring in, but because of his service and turn time. My clients were contacted within 24 hours of my appraisal being ordered, appointments were set within 3 business days, and I would generally receive the completed appraisal within 24 hours of inspection. In 2004, when other Loan Officers were waiting for 3 weeks for an appraisal, my appraiser prioritized my orders and kept his turn times for me. I never had a review issue, as he was conservative, and he was professional with my clients. HVCC has caused me to lose time, pay for lock extentions and lose deals. (If a property was going to have questionable value, he would call me so that I could address it with the borrower before he completed the appraisal and charged me.) We need to get rid of HVCC and rid the industry of the crooked appraisers and originators that caused the need for HVCC. Let the professionals that are ethical and have business from constant excellent customer service and client/realtor relationships stay in the business. Isn't this the purpose of the NMLS for originators?

bobbbi loan officer: (October 14, 2009 5:08am)

Dear Valuequestor, Until you walk a mile in our shoes don't make the comment the rate is the rate. Not soooooo Pleple shop until they drop It is no easy task. Believe I know how hard your jobs is and I vote against HVCC everyday. I have worked with my apprasier for 12 years and he is one of the best.

Ratherbeinmaui: (October 14, 2009 5:07am)

Appraiser guy... thought one... spell check your entries (the old fashioned way). Thought two... it's not as though the brokers have this "stable" of appraisers that they let loose to perform appraisals and then take the most advantageous one. We would like the ability to work with the appraiser who delivers us with the highest quality of service and the most reliable value... this is done through a)having a thorough knowledge of the area and b)taking the time (this is key) to find the necessary comps to try to attain value. HVCC prevents us from using the sources that will deliver us the quality of work that we strive to deliver to our clients, by forcing us to use whoever the lender's dartboard chooses for us. They, in great likelihood a)will not know the area intimately and b)will be unlikely to spend the time necessary to research the comps the way our former relationships might have, due to getting paid a meager $125 per appraisal by many of these lenders. We are in the situation we are in solely and exclusively due to unscrupulous parties doing business in our industry. This goes for LO's, Wholesalers, Bond rating agencies, appraisers and Realtors. Fraud is an equal opportunity employer. Some chose to sign up and some didn't. Now... the ones who didn't sign up are being penalized by the actions of the ones who did.

south florida: (October 14, 2009 4:36am)

Injecting a middleman is not helpful. The cost to the borrower is more and quality of reports is lower. AMC's are cutting fees to appraisers and expecting unrealistic turnarounds. Then some inexperienced idiot spends a week picking the rushed report over. Miss the deadline you are at the bottom of the list. Appraisers are letting it happen by accepting low fees and not standing up for the proper turn around. I also see a lot of appraisers worried abount BOA orders. Who cares? Landsafe is one of the worst when it comes down to giving the appraiser ample time to do their work, they pay the lowest fees, and make you transmit in AI format that doesn't always transmit the whole report. Then they sell your data to AVM,s. I don't care about BOA or Landsafe.

appraiser guy: (October 14, 2009 4:17am)

I watch your site everyday, but to day you guys just proved why we have the screwed up HVCC! Your opinion on shopping an appraisal is primarily the reason for the whole thing and you don't even know it! If you send out 5 different appraiser that know the area, have access to sales data needed, and are compitent, follow USPAP, they should all be utilizing the most similar data available which will in turn result in similar results. It should part the LO's responsibility to utilize good honest appraiser's, not shop around until they get the value they are looking for! Example: If the first appraiser comes in low, getting a second opinion is okay as long as you paid for the first one!!! It is when you go through 3,4, and 5 appraiser's until you find one that will get the value that is much higher than the first 2 or 3 appraisers, and a value that you asked him to try to get which is illeagal by the way)!!!! That is BUL-S--t! That is exactly what is going on with many LO's. If you have 3 or 4 good appraiser's opinion that a property is valued at $200,000, but you need $215,000? Then here comes Sam the appraiser who says "no problem"? Let him know that his appraisal will face a field-review that will be performed from one of your previous used appraiser's =) You will see him back down to $200,000 real fast!!!! I see many home owners who are upside down on there homes for this very reason! It is called "preditory Lending" and "fraudulant appraisal work" all day long, and you appear to be supporting it today!!!

Really: (October 14, 2009 4:15am)

For the record.. I work well with appraisers..the ones that are professional and they are the ones getting the shaft right now.

Really: (October 14, 2009 4:13am)

So I don't get it.. I keep hearing the appraisers talk about being pressured, why would you do business with someone that pressured you? You can not except the business and then cry I was pressured for value. You sound like some teenage kid that says his friends pressured me into smoking Pot. There are to many good deals out there to work on the bad ones. Honestly I don't care about the value... it is what it is... but the appraiser/messanger has to show up ontime, have customer service skills and know the rules and guidelines of their craft to get the fair market value. If you have followed all the rules and applied the principles correctly then you should have no problem explaining your work. Hell I can even challenge the IRS and point out in their playbook where they have made mistakes and get it corrected..why should consumers not have the same right with appraisals?

Mad as Hell Appraiser, and I'm not going to take it anymore!: (October 14, 2009 3:59am)

HVCC was caused by a legal suit and it will be a law suit to repeal or modify it. I'm unable to get on any good AMC approved panels. I am talking to a few lawyers about a Case Action Law Suit. We want to subpoena their records to find out how they approve appraisers and distribute the assignments. I know one appraiser in Northern CA and she got 30 appraisals in one week from B of A and others got nothing. Why is that? Share your ideas email me at spachuk@hotmail.com. We can change things, caring is sharing!

Hans Bruhner (no alias for me): (October 14, 2009 3:52am)

We all have a tough job and we all need to work together. We can over simplify all of it.... I sometimes have to fight to keep my clients even after they are in contract and I have done a lot of work so I can say that Realtors and Appraisers have it easier on that front... Frank did over simplify, I am sure he would ask how and why etc. etc. before getting a second opinion. I have worked with a few appraisers for decades and I don't just move on if they don't have the value and I am sure Frank doesn't either. You guys are up early.... my late night just turned into an all nighter. XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXO

Valuequestor: (October 14, 2009 3:37am)

Hey!!.......I was 1st.....How cool is that! I left plenty to talk about for you other appraisers. I could have gone on infinitem.

Valuequestor: (October 14, 2009 3:33am)

Come on guys...Don't you think that's a little simplistic? Your rate is your rate you don't have to work (much) to arrive at it. Putting all the laws, rules and USPAP appraisers are subject to aside. You are asking us to do all of the work necessary to arrive at a credible and supported opinion of value and offer it up to you to see if you'll pay for it. That's bad business. An appraisal is not something you can store and then maybe sell to the next guy. I wish I wasn't subject to USPAP and Licensing sometimes and could just rattle off my opinion when asked. But the fact is, doing that without a file full of research and developed approaches to value and a reconcilation of those approaches puts me in violation of the Uniform Standards of Appraisal Practice, subject to large fines and possibly loosing my license that costs me an s load to aquire and maintain. Damn.....I thought maybe this site was different and we could talk to each other and make sense. I guess its cats and dogs...living together...Mass Hysteria !!