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Ron in Ohio: (October 16, 2009 7:05pm)

I hav been a lender appraiser for 50 years. The whole process as been relegated to software that is sold by one monopolistic company who is in bed with the National Association Of Realtors and their MLS. Hundreds of review efforts passed over my desk since Y2k. They were horribly distoreted with computers processing the results. Very little human intervention, less involvement with appraisers who ever had any brokerage experience. Contract appraisal companies rule the roost with "quick turn around" that are little more than data mills run by rum dums who have never had to build a house or devlope land in an entrepeurial mode. Yes, the government who is essentially the trustee of the public's money must spend that money to get experienced people who are willing to dedicate their whole lives to a profession, not some half cocked retired person who knows how to run a computer. The problems will never be solved until we weed out the people who do it for speed and the money.

Ron in Ohio: (October 16, 2009 7:05pm)

I hav been a lender appraiser for 50 years. The whole process as been relegated to software that is sold by one monopolistic company who is in bed with the National Association Of Realtors and their MLS. Hundreds of review efforts passed over my desk since Y2k. They were horribly distoreted with computers processing the results. Very little human intervention, less involvement with appraisers who ever had any brokerage experience. Contract appraisal companies rule the roost with "quick turn around" that are little more than data mills run by rum dums who have never had to build a house or devlope land in an entrepeurial mode. Yes, the government who is essentially the trustee of the public's money must spend that money to get experienced people who are willing to dedicate their whole lives to a profession, not some half cocked retired person who knows how to run a computer. The problems will never be solved until we weed out the people who do it for speed and the money.

AZ Appraiser: (October 16, 2009 1:06pm)

Also, those people who are trying to compare "shopping an appraiser" with shopping for rates, shopping for doctor opinions or shopping for a mechanic are comparing apples and oranges. Those professions don't risk their license by "guestimating a value." It is not REGULATED!! That's the difference. AGAIN, USPAP has specific rules that appraisers must follow. If you want to risk your livilihood for a "comp check".. go ahead. Also! The person who stated that the appraisal prices are going up, and the quality is going down... that is an HVCC issue!! These AMC's are charging anywhere from $340-$500 for the appraisals but the appraisers are only getting $175-225 for the appraisal!! Don't blame the appraiser!! And the issue of providing a contract which gives the appraiser the "target value", again IT IS A USPAP REQUIREMENT that the contract is reviewed!! WE HAVE TO DO IT! Don't blame us! Blame USPAP!!!

AZ Appraiser: (October 16, 2009 1:00pm)

Ok, I only read about the first half of the comments on this because are just plain too many. As an appraiser, do I agree with all the rules that USPAP requires us to follow?? NO!! But that doesn not give me the freedom to do whatever the hell I want!! Yes, we can do comp checks, but by the definition of USPAP, it is considered an appraisal. SO, by doing a comp check, USPAP requires us to have a complete file for that "comp check/appraisal" and that file must be kept and SUPPORTED for 5 years! If you cannot support your opinion, it is your license at stake. Without seeing a house, a GOOD opinion of value is impossible. Do I get comp check requests?? yes.. do I do some of them for clients who I know understand that it is a GUESS and things can change when I get out there.. yes. Is that right by USPAP? NO! So, those appraisers who are following the letter of the law, there is nothing wrong with that!!

BobRedSanRafael: (October 16, 2009 12:49pm)

About your business model rationale behind brokers shopping appraisals for valuation "opinions" before assigning an order, other appraisers have already made well-supported rational objections here, which I need not reiterate. But how you boys were not aware of the illegality of prying a pre-order value "opinion" out of an appraiser in California really throws your expertise on any subject into serious question. http://www.orea.ca.gov/html/sb223links.shtml Shoot from the hip, fast and loose worked at the OK Corral, but not in this business climate. Get it right.

Beau in AZ: (October 16, 2009 12:05pm)

I watched this video again and it should not suprise alot of appraisers but it does. Why do CEO's of major corporations take literally billions of dollars in bonuses and salaries? because they can-the public pays the price. Why do pro athletes get millions to play a kids game? because they can-the public pays the price. Why do banks, mortgage brokers and loan officers charge "fees" and "commissions"? Because they can-the public pays the price. Ask any one of these "professionals" to take a flat fee for the work they do and they would say no. No matter how much we complain, MBs, LOs, and lenders ARE NOT going to change. We are the only ones who could lose our license, we are the only ones who could lose our E&O, we are the ones bashed when something goes wrong, we bear the most responsibilty. WE are the ONLY ones with the homeowners best interest in mind. Be careful how "freely" you handle this responisibility.

Beau in AZ: (October 16, 2009 11:04am)

Maybe if the appraiser, mortgage broker, loan officer and underwriter shared the same amount of responsibility in the loan and value, were licensed (that could be suspended) and had to carry E&O (that could be sued) they might be more interested in getting a good quality, trusted appraiser to do their appraisals and they wouldn't need to be shopping appraisers?

Chicago10: (October 16, 2009 9:31am)

I see that many people believe that comp checks are not legal??? is this true does that mean that every appraiser has violated the law before hvcc??? The issue with hvcc also is that the appraiser can make issues out of situtations such as "economic life." Yeah why not just put the economic life at 20 years guess what, you can't get a 30 year loan only a 20yr loan. Wow another hvcc give us the appraisal for 35 yr economic life. Wow i thought that the issue was only value but also economic life. Its just a mess and guess what we can't challenge and ask for clarity because its illegal. So that just means our borrower is out of money period. Is really Hvcc needed? What support does it provide? Is competition bad for appraisers? is it really?

Closer: (October 16, 2009 9:18am)

To finish. In every industry in the world, there are those who excel and do a far superior job than the rest, you've heard the saying that 80% of the work or the money is made by 20% of the people, I think it's more like 80% to 90% is done by 10%. I've seen it everywhere, Real Estate, Mortgages, Appraisers, Garbage men, Politicians, everywhere. I am very grateful to have a wonderful appraiser who does a great job and we have developed a relationship over the years so that when he comes back and tells me that the value we need isn't there, I believe him because I know he works hard to get it if it exists. The truth of the matter is that it is the bottom 20% of the people in our industry, Realtors, Mortgage and Appraisers that have ruined it for the rest of us and they all did it trying to make a quick buck, now most of them are gone and we're left to deal with all this regulatory crap, it's not fair to us but quit crying and go EARN some business.

Closer: (October 16, 2009 8:59am)

WOW, you appraisers are a bunch of cry babies, you don't like being shopped because you don't want to WORK for your business, you just want the order to come over the fax and for everyone involved to feel lucky to be working with such an incredible professional in the industry, Here Mr. Appraiser, here's your $450 and we would never dream of questioning your opinion because you're all knowing spent at least 30 min working on this appraisal hard to get this value. It has been our experience that when we are forced to work with someone who is not our preferred appraiser, they do not put in the time and effort to do a FULL appraisal with the TRUE value because it requires more time and explination and justification for the value they would come up with, our preferred appraiser works hard to get us the best value he can justify, 90% of the time the appraisals go through the lender just fine, the other 10% get a review and then get signed off because he does the work needed to do so.

THE PATRIOT: (October 16, 2009 8:37am)

We should make this easy and it should have been done a long time ago. Make lenders and real estate agents take the USPAP course every two years as mandated for appraisers and make them meet the same standards. Suspend and fine those who keep violating the laws. Asking an appraiser to comp a property and estimate a value is called an "APPRAISAL" and must have a file to be maintained to support the guestimation. Lenders, stop asking for this! Go to zillo or your other programs and comp it yourself if you want an idea. Nobody knows the value of a property until and inspection is completed. Stop playing the games and put the liability on your shouders.

Kscubablu: (October 16, 2009 7:52am)

When a lender reviews an appraisal, they evaluate data used and can also choose to have a separate one done at their expense. If the opinions are vastly different then even further scrutiny of both the appreaiser's qualifications and the data to support each appraisal is done. This is how it should be. If any data is given prior to a full appraisal, it should only be if the house is not going to come even close to the loan amount. A good appraisal is normally 400-450.00. Lenders only pay appriximately 300.00. This is where the problem starts. I have never work with anyone that did not do a straight up honest appraisal even if it killed deal. This is doing my fiduciary responsiblity as a mortgage broker for both the client and the lenders guidelines. Anyone who violates the law on any side should be fined, loose license and their ability to do loans, criminals on all sides brought us here to this place and have hurt our indusry and much of the public.

Still a "Concerned Appraiser": (October 16, 2009 5:33am)

And for the TBW guys to implicate that "shopping for value is OK" is ludicrous. The appraisal process provides a system where if a lender is dissatisfied with the content of a report submitted by an appraiser they have the option of a review. But "they" don't want to spend the "borrowers" money for that part of the process. I'm tired of hearing "we're trying to save the customer money." I'm trying to make money. If you want an appraisal, order one and quit playing games.

Concerned "Professional" Appraiser: (October 16, 2009 5:27am)

The idea that lenders or AMC/VMCs can shop for value is not a concern. What is a concern is that they often shop for that value not realizing that when an appraiser provides a number or range of numbers related to a property, USPAP clearly states that an appraisal has been completed and the appraiser must maintain a work file. It does not make a difference is the information relayed to the lender is verbal or otherwise. It is still considered an appraisal in the eyes of appraisal laws. So now, the question becomes, if an appraiser provides that information, does the work to determine what the value is, why would they not get paid for the time the risk involved?!! Appraisers who don't know their own laws, and choose to appease clients' ridiculous requests without adhering to laws are acting unprofessionally and unethically in an attempt to gain business. I consider these to be the ones who are desperate for business and denigrating this profession. They need to go away.

Frebert: (October 16, 2009 1:09am)

It is obvious that mortgage brokers have no clue what "shopping" really is and the pressure it exerts on appraisers, even good ones. Especially in slower markets. Admittedly, each person should be responsible to behave in a moral fashion, but if you are expecting that you must have just crawled out from underneath a rock, because people are not that way. And if you are thinking “I can’t be coerced”, well in almost every case you are just being dishonest with yourself, or delusional about your inner moral strength, which in the face of the fear of going hungry or losing your home is probably much weaker than you realize. The goal of HVCC, sadly missed by a long shot, was to eliminate that power to coerce. This power needed to be taken from mortgage brokers because too many abused it, and it was needed to be removed to help weak willed appraisers stay the true course. Frank, Brian and the rest of you mortgage brokers should never have been shopping value in the first place; rather you should have spent your time finding skilled, knowledgeable professionals, whose expertise you could trust. The latter is hard to do for 2 reasons: 1) you have to be moral to want to do it, 2) you have to have the intellect and knowledge to be able to do it. The former course is so much easier since whores are always easier to find. Shopping the deal was never the right path, just the easy one, and it is one of the reasons for our economic Armageddon.

Look in the Mirror: (October 16, 2009 12:19am)

Appraisers, rather than spewing off about what scum loan officers are, understand that unless someone tells us, we don't know what is legal or illegal for appraisers. If all appraisers adherred to USPAP we wouldn't be having this discussion. If appraisers weren't providing comp checks, loan officers would quickly know that it wasn't allowed. For myself, on a purchase I trust the realtors to have done the research for the buyers so they are making offers that can be supported by an appraisal. Any good realtor knows in this market that the appraisal will be reviewed. On refinances, I have always ultilized property profiles from title company websites to get an estimate of value. And my estimates are usually pretty close. I have seen loan officers demand of my husband to guarantee to come in at value or not charge for the appraisal. If I know the loan officer, I have called them out for an illegal practice. It is not worth compromising ethics for a few hundred $$$.

Socal Appraisal Gal: (October 15, 2009 11:13pm)

Wow guys I love your show but you are dead wrong. Ruffle feathers yesterday...well today I think your chicken has been plucked to the bone!!! You really just lost us all. I turned your show onto the Office of Real Estate Appraiser, CA...yeah the investigators up in the big gov. office. Today is a sad day as I am eating my words. Everything you are promoting today and yesterday is a direct violation of USPAP. The HVCC supporter's are going to use this video against us...Guy's I love you but take a USPAP class...sober...I am planning on going to New York but you and I have to talk...I am not going to throw ethic's out the window...We you even around in banking days when the banks employed appraisal staff and we determined value based on what it was worth to make a safe investment. Gee if that had happened over the past 10 years we wouldn't be in the mess we are in today. When I worked for the bank I was not allowed to talk to the mortgage originator about value...You just don't get it.

FLMike: (October 15, 2009 8:36pm)

This is directed to all the idiot HVCC supporters in the US. When you have no control over hiring someone, anyone to do a job for you and you have absolutely no control over which company you would like to hire or what they charge, in other words once you're forced to pay a company to do a job for you that you have no idea who they are or how good they are… then come back here and post. Just imagine if you were forced to hire a company to remodel you home only to be told that it was going to be contracted out to a national company and you have no choice who was going to do the work in your home and you couldn’t shop them for price? I think most people would be paying someone on the side to do the same job just so you have some kind of control what was going on in your household Furthermore, I was ordering appraisals for around $300.00 before HVCC for a non FHA appraisal. Now with HVCC it’s $450.00. Oh yeah, that’s really helping the American consumer take it up the wasula because they have NO CHOICE! It’s not portable the way is before HVCC as a mortgage broker. F- HVCC it’s so VERY, VERY BAD for the consumer. Anyone that supports this needs their head examined.

EdC: (October 15, 2009 8:26pm)

Nobody gets it. If the banks underwriters were doing their jobs none of this would have happened. Banks now and then have given up assessing their risk. That is the problem.

TexasAppraiserLady: (October 15, 2009 8:08pm)

Interesting. YOu fellows are self righteous fanatics when other industry professionals break the rules. Yet you believe appraisers should be expected to break appraisal rules (because it benefits you) by providing (free) comp checks....which violates USPAP. It's guys like you for whom the "spirit" of HVCC was written....guys likeyou who got us into this mess to begin with. I'm going to request that my "subscription" to TBWS is cancelled. I'm no longer a fan!!

EdC: (October 15, 2009 7:40pm)

You MB's might want to read this. This is what the appraisers are complaining about. I've never experienced or been a part of it. http://correspondents.theatlantic.com/christina_davidson/2009/10/mortgage_fraud_in_bend_or.php

CornerstoneKathy: (October 15, 2009 7:33pm)

Hey Frank whats the record for the number of posts in a day on the blog and hey..not to change the subject but how about those Dodgers!!

Wolf in sheeps clothing: (October 15, 2009 7:28pm)

When did AMC's & HUD employees start posing as LO's and writting comments to get us all worked up? It has caused a huge negative impact on this comment section. Maybe it's time to kill the comment section and start chatting. Or at least have a moderator preview the comments before they post.

**IMPORTANT**: (October 15, 2009 6:43pm)

KEEP HVCC - I'm sorry, you actually do sound like a wholsome respectable loan officer, that has skirted the AMC and still has contact with your favorite appraiser on the side. I too work for a clients like you. I know when a order comes in from *** management co., that the appraisal order is from Mr.****(LO) and he will be calling me shortly to see if I received the order from the AMC yet, then he tells me all about the property and clients. This is an outright scam, enjoy it while it last. If your appraisers find out your veiws, they just might turn tail and report you. Better play nice. By the way what is up with the camel fetish? I have yet to cry over this.

Tina: (October 15, 2009 5:40pm)

real appraiser: what about this part - 4910?

Different Point of View: (October 15, 2009 5:38pm)

Sorry this isn't an appraisal-related post, but I couldn't let the misinformation in today's video go without comment. HUD is not "hiring" anyone, and there's nothing new about this program. HUD-approved counseling agencies have been around for years. Counselors do upfront work with folks -- helping them to understand the language, helping them know what they are qualified to borrow, helping them put together the docs they need to bring to their LO's office, helping them to recognize a bad loan or a sleazy LO. HUD-approved counselors are not a bad thing. They help to create a well-informed, well-prepared buyer/borrower.

Muslim Finance: (October 15, 2009 5:37pm)

Regarding my post a few below this one, this is just another example of how bad HVCC actually is for appraisers. We are all so desperate for work since May 1st that we have to take anything that comes our way. Since HVCC does not allow us to collect payment for our services directly from the homeowner we are vulnerable to being taken advantage of. In addition to the $3,000+ that Soverein Valuation Group & Sam Oraby owe my firm, I have another $3,000 in outstanding invoices from a variety of other AMCs that are now 60-90 days past due. That is more than $6,000 of free work I will have done thanx to Mr. Cuomo. What happened to the IVPI to protect the appraiser???

Tina : (October 15, 2009 5:36pm)

Thanks real appraiser: you th4e man, I will take you to lunch some day

real appraiser: (October 15, 2009 5:27pm)

Tina, actually any part of 4150.2 were you find "reconciliation. The section I gave you is for 1073' but it is also in chap 1 section 7. hope this helps

real appraiser: (October 15, 2009 5:14pm)

Tina, chapter 3 section 11 in 4150.2 states: “subject to a required inspection” when the appraisal calls for a required inspection to: • Certify the condition and/or status of a mechanical or structural element of the property • Protect the health and safety of the occupants • Protect the security of the property • Meet FHA Minimum Property Requirements or Minimum Property Standards More than one box may be marked depending on the assignment and property conditions. The appraiser must indicate the reasoning for any required inspections and note this in the appropriate section of the appraisal, or in the “additional comments” section, or in an addendum, under the heading of “Reconciliation – Valuation Conditions” listing the required inspections.

Muslim Finance: (October 15, 2009 5:03pm)

***WARNING*** Appraisers, since AMCs are being discussed so frequently in this forum I thought you deserve a warning. A small AMC based out of New Jersey named "Sovereign Valuation Group" run by "Sam Oraby" is ordering multiple appraisals and not making good on his payment commitment. He primarily represents "Guidance Residential, LLC" out of Reston, VA. They are a mortgage lender that caters primarily to Muslims. I have been duped out of more than $3,000 in appraisal fees and he has completely cut off all contact with my appraisal firm at this point. I have seen similar stories about this guy floating around the internet. ***PLEASE BEWARE AND SPREAD THE WORD***

Tina, the peon in the office: (October 15, 2009 5:01pm)

Hello Appraiser and LO. I have a question about FHA Codes. One of the Appraisers in the office was asked to make a statement that the subject property meets the FHA minimum property standards. As the office clerk I passed this on to the appraiser and he asked me to print out a copy of this standard. But FHA is deep and wide and I don't know what code to look for, can any one give me the code number to look up and print out?

DAG: (October 15, 2009 4:59pm)

Keep HVCC - I think lenders will need to set up their own bank of appraisers and abandon AMC's. I have spoken to my lenders about it. They hate working thru the AMC's as much as we do. They've invested a lot and will need to switch gears, but I expect them to. Imagine the day without AMC's, when experienced, qualified appraisers are back to work.

KEEP HVCC: (October 15, 2009 4:54pm)

To each appraiser, I do not doubt you had value shoppers in the stated income days..But now with reviews of every type at every corner we as lenders all want the real value upfront, hence no pressure from us anymore. You keep badgering us that all we do is value push when no one in their right mind would do that anymore, so I know it's not happening. Let the past go, those LO's are gone or have learned the hard way already. Quit crying wolf about it, if someone has done it to you lately they are worthless and the deal wouldn't close for them if you did it for them anyways. You need to find something else to whine about..And every one of you does comp checks for your favorite LO's if they call, so quit lying about that too. Enough already

real appraiser: (October 15, 2009 4:44pm)

Clulessdad:You will see this with the HVCC and different AMC's. The appraiser used to pick the best comps. Now, AMC rules on the appraisal order will say all sales within 90 days, within 20% gla, similar this, similar that. With some AMC's you might have more play and less headache. But once they start dictating how to do the report, some appraisers just fall in line. I do not fault them, stand out and be taken off their list, comply and get more work. This is pressure in another way and some appraisers will hide behind the AMC's.,for this reason HVCC has gotta go. But these morons on this site have no clue that the arguments like "screw USPAP" is the exact reason we have the HVCC. if you order an appraisal and it has an estimated value, I can still do the job, If I give you a heads up about issues and it helps you, i have got no problem and neither do other appraisers here(mostly),the difference is shopping for highest value gets the job, I know u dont do this, but others do.

joecolorado: (October 15, 2009 4:33pm)

I had a hard time reading the blogs today, seems like everyone is finger pointing, so there must be some houses out there which are not made of glass. When we plummet to inuendo, name calling, accusations and blame, the pro HVCCers are loving it...we cant even agree on who we are angry at and why we are angry. The only sure thing I have seen so far is the borrower is paying a heck of a lot more for an appraisal with quality not guaranteed, The LO's are not sure whether the loans will work as they have no say, The appraiser is angry as fees & turn times are reduced, liability is increased and now we are working FOR a company that has no loyalty or respect to or for us as individual professionals. The mortgage broker is becoming extinct and the borrower is still in the dark about the whole process..... talk about a perfect storm.... hopefully there will be more positive productive blogs tomorrow.1000 characters suck

Stingray: (October 15, 2009 4:30pm)

Keep HVCC: The in-house appraisal ordering - separate from the loan production staff idea your company has set up is catching on and it's what everyone should have been doing since May 1st. The problem is, most don't realize they can do this and avoid the AMC's altogether. I am educating my former clients now and they are beginning to set things up. Apart from removing the HVCC altogether, this is the best option. As far as for cheering for the demise of appraisers however, while you may really hold that opinion, it's really inapropriate for you to express that here. This is a team effort. We need you and you need us.

DAG: (October 15, 2009 4:30pm)

Some great comments today! Especially LO, DD NH, and New to discussion (sorry I forgot your tag). Many of us want the best for our customers and we had good working relationships with appraisers prior to HVCC. Every appraisal I've seen since HVCC has been a problem. Not that I had any unrealistic idea of value, one actually came in 20% higher than it ever should have. All have taken from 2 to 3 weeks, One took 3 weeks to get scheduled and the appraiser then asked the Realtor to tell the borrower he would "rush" it for an extra $1000, then delivered an appraisal that was totally unusable. I have seen fraud when I had never witnessed it in my 13 years of originating loans. I never witnessed it because I worked with honest, reliable, seasoned appraisers. We do need to work together. My congressman signed on HR3044 this week, and I sent him a thank you. I'm about ready to go to Washington and sit on the sidewalk until they come to their senses. Keep talking to your reps and senators!

Clulessdad: (October 15, 2009 4:27pm)

Ancient appraiser-I would love to hear what any appraiser has to say, however appraisers are like snowflakes, they are beautiful but all different. Every one of you has slight differences in the way you do things. How else do I get 3 different values for the same property in 2 months of $275,$242, and $260? (In that order)To someone who said get three appraisals-which one of those values would you choose? They all had different comps!I want to talk to the appraiser who is doing the job, to find out if he has the knowledge and expertise to determine the property value. I want the facts and nothing but the facts. I can handle the facts. HVCC is garbage. And I like the idea of the hotline to report pressure on the appraiser to inflate values. As long as there is a mechanism for me to do the same with an appraiser I am all for it. Actually that is not a bad idea. HHMMMMMMM

Jersey Girl: (October 15, 2009 4:24pm)

KEEP HVCC: Wow I just logged on again for the first time since this morning and unfortunately your blog was the first one I read...I wish I hadn't. I'm glad I know some good lenders out there and know better to NOT stereotype. Why so cynical? To call appraisers whiners is one thing, but to wish them bankrupt, etc. is just uncalled for. But hey what goes around comes around.

Clulessdad: (October 15, 2009 4:12pm)

If the appraisal first idea was the way to do it, I would whole heartedly agree. Many times I have done that. But with HVCC it is now different. Appraisals are not portable, so once I get an appraisal from an AMC, it is stuck to one lender. And what happens if that one lender has a very conservative overlay to the FNMA guidelines and my borrower has some problems in getting all the other details together? (That is broker talk for a lender having better rates but stricter guidelines)I view my clients money as if it were my own, and it is REAL hard to convince someone to give me $400 on the off chance that they could get a loan thru me. I better know what I am doing to let them know all the pitfalls of doing their loan. After all if you were my client, wouldn't you want me to give all the pertinent info on your deal so you could determine if you wanted to shell out the $400?

KEEP HVCC: (October 15, 2009 4:06pm)

Sorry I was gone, I had an FHA apraisal that I needed to get ordered and a Realtor to listen to stories from. Anyways, IMPORTANT, I'm ot done with you. You think you're so cool. Why aren't you working on something meaningful? You sit and wait for me all day, go ahead and keep pushing "Send and Receive" you idiot. I can't wait for HVCC to bankrupt all of you appraisers. I'm loving it. It won't go away and from the sound of it from you it's my fault because I'm a mortgage lender. I broke you, is that what you say? Well, then it's been my pleasure! Go stick it up your asses

Ancient Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 4:02pm)

I think it's time to call it a day when KeepHVCC starts arguing with a fictitious person ! Keep the faith Frank and Brian we're not all pompous asses !

olson643MA: (October 15, 2009 3:56pm)

the days of the "freebies" for LO's are over. The up and coming appraisers who have dealt with strict standards, college ed requirements, and passing a test that has a national pass average around %30 wont be doing anything for free. I know a few young guys and let me tell you, I know nothing matches experience-but these guys are sharp, and trust me NOT EVERYONE WILL PASS THE NEW TEST. So be prepared LO's, the future generation who will expect and demand to be rewarded for the hard work, efforts, and liabilities they face daily. Like an attorney, a phone call may cost you a pretty penny. If you ask me, top caliber guys like this are whats needed in this mess. Their hard work, efforts and capability above out-performing others should be financially rewarded. The few that will make it are laughing at frank and br right now, and they will be the ones to someday hold the iron to these wrinkles.

Ancient Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 3:48pm)

Syracuseappraisalguy hit the nail on the head when he said get the appraisal first. Been trying to establish that for years and had a local broker try it and it went well. Client paid for appraisal and credit report "BEFORE" everyone started working ! To Clueless Dad; contact a experienced,retired or semi-retired Appraiser (lot available now)to come in and give a lecture/meeting on what to look for in the valuation process; where to look and how to make some educated assumptions. Hope this helps !

appallday: (October 15, 2009 3:44pm)

preach on appraiserman. If they want to shop two or three appraiser for a value, go ahead just pay them all for their time, then decide which appraisal u want to use. LO's should pay for the app out of your own pocket, consider it overhead, this would emliminate LO's out shopping for garbage and would narrow down deals to the ones that should "go thru" in the first place.

Appraiserman: (October 15, 2009 3:37pm)

You two butt heads are idiots! Brian & Frnak that is. So let me get this straight, it's o.k for you to get a second appraisal opinion for free but you don't want someone looking over your loan documents to see how bad you are screwing the customer on junk fees and yeild spread! I dont like big government and I agree that this process of the new loan reviewers is a waste of tax dollars, I'm conservative, but you two are a bunch of morons. How can an appraiser give you a value before he sees the property? What about condition, location, deferred maintenance, locational or functional obsolescence? You meatheads probally don't even know what it means. The HVCC sux but it's because of crooks like you that it was implemented in the first place. Yeild spread, junk fees, you get the picture? Quit whinning and be honest and ethical! Why do you expect an appraiser to work for free. Order an appraisal, have the borrower pay for it and you will know what the property is worth.

**IMPORTANT**: (October 15, 2009 3:16pm)

oh boy, new website will be up shortly BOB546, this will be a great pettition. iggnorance is not bliss. just ask "keepHVCC" he's our village idiot.

bob546: (October 15, 2009 3:12pm)

wheres the petition to send LO's and the lenders on this blog to USPAP

**IMPORTANT**: (October 15, 2009 3:02pm)

KEEP HVCC - I have not heard from you. Perhaps my web mail is down. Please feel free to contact me at an alternate mail address (hvcc09@yahoo.com)

ILL Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 3:02pm)

IMPORTANT- You are right. Comp checks are not illegal but according to USPAP you need to keep a work file, just like a full blown appraisal, for them as discussed earlier.

**IMPORTANT**: (October 15, 2009 2:53pm)

COMP CHECKS ARE NOT ILLEGAL-If you do a comp check on a specific property without a request however, you are not allowed to appraise the property for the same transaction as you have had discussion of value. It will give the loan officer a chance to order the appraisal with confidence from another appraiser. As you said though, not all appraisers come up with the same OPPINION of value.

ILL Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 2:48pm)

Chicago10 - The "grey area" is in the definition of "comp check". To give a value or range for a specific property violates USPAP and therefore can cost an appraiser his/her license as well as fines. To give a range of value for a subdivision or for all the similar style houses in a given geographical location and letting the LO or whoever decide if the subject property is the best property in the neighborhood, or not, is not a violation. I like to recommend starting with the assessor's valuation if someone is asking for specifics, or the homeowner, since most of the "pressure" comes from the refinances and the whole LTV aspect.

EconomyInRuins: (October 15, 2009 2:44pm)

**IMPORTANT**... TOUCHE'

**IMPORTANT**: (October 15, 2009 2:41pm)

KEEP HVCC- There is a chance that you could meet me in person, I don't know where you are at though. You must think of youself as a big man, that is usually a sign of a bad mental state. I am not scared of the big man or I wouldn't have a website about a district attorney. your use of foul language also suggest that you have a limited vocabulary. And to use the body part you mentioned just shows your feelings of inadequacy. Please contact me through my website. perhaps we could meet up or just talk on the phone. I never wished you ill feeling, I actually started off by aggeeing with you, but your emotions got the best of you. I am sorry you have not figured out how to keep them in check. when you grow up you may aquire these skills.

EconomyInRuins: (October 15, 2009 2:40pm)

Comp Search? I give/gave my appraisers a lot of business because I have been loyal to them and brought them to each new company I have worked with for many years. They get a lot of business that is not even mine because of my introductions due to a round robin process. When I used to ask them for a comp search for a refinance (Realtors are supposed to do their job if it is a purchase so I let those chips fall where they may) I would simply ask for a "shoot from the hip value". If the borrower owes 400k and the approximate value is 300k then why waste anyone's time in pursuing it any further? I have NEVER held their feet to the fire if the actual appraisal comes in lower because of something they found at the actual inspection. If the value isn't what we presumed it was then we stop but for the customer to pay $450 only to find out they are 100k away from being able to refi, that is ridicules. If we are not putting pressure on an appraiser for a specific value, why shouldn’t we be allowed to ask for a comp search?

KEEP HVCC: (October 15, 2009 2:37pm)

Chicago 10...I don't see where appraisers had much competition to begin with. All the prices were relatively the same, are they not? It's just you got shut out by AMC's from getting your former clients. If you approach Mortgage Bankers you can get new clients. The competition you seek is in getting alligned with Mortgage Bankers before your whining complainers on this website beat you to it. Soon you Appraisers will see that while you have been blogging your competition is getting busy and adding clients they never had before. When one door closes another opens. That has always been the case and I outlined the clear option for you earlier. Go HVCC! Stop this website of whining complainers ASAP

Chicago10: (October 15, 2009 2:30pm)

You all have to be kidding me. Please think before you write anything. Now can somebody, anybody please explain to me how competition is bad? HVCC eliminates competition period. That is simple and basic and you don't need anything to realize that, but if you do please comment back and ask away. Now when it comes to asking for OPV, what is wrong with that. A range is where you estimate the property value. Hey that is great now we can understand where it can fall to or rise to. Is that an issue with everybody. Now the loan officer can choose to accept your services for the range that your provided. WHAT is so hard to understand? The appraiser then inspects the property and if the property is in good condition then guess what hey falls in his range. Great perfect. If not then he explains that the property had something unexpected and falls out of his range. If your a loan officer or broker you must understand this. Its still very simple where is the gray area here. Please somebody tell me

ALApprazer: (October 15, 2009 2:24pm)

Just ti finish up my last post. The question is did the appraiser not feel the necessity to complete a proper appraisal because it was a half fee appraisal? Was it pressure for a turn around time? QUALITY is suffering because of the HVCC and we all need to fight it. Get off the comp check issue.

KEEP HVCC: (October 15, 2009 2:24pm)

Important. If I actually thought I could get the chance to see you in person, I know you would not tell me anything but "Yes Sir." Therefore, to think I would be entertained while you hide would be fruitless for me. Go play with your camel, thumb dick

Are you "pro" paying appraisers for their work?: (October 15, 2009 2:23pm)

You do admit that two appraisers, doing their job professionally, ethically, honestly, can have a difference of opinion of a few thousand dollars. You admit that the difference can make or break a deal. Bravo. The problem with what you say is - you're not willing to deal with ethical, professional appraisers. When you find them - pay them. And if it takes paying 2 appraisers on some occasions, consider that as a cost of doing business ethically and professionally. But no, that cuts into your commissions. Why pay for an appraisal when you can get an opinion for free, right? it's not your fault, its all the appraiser's fault for giving away for free their guess what it might be worth hoping you'll give them the order... lol Talking out of both sides of your mouth and you know it, Bri. Every one knows two good appraisals CAN be a few thousand dollars apart - but no one wants to pay for it. They didn't need HVCC - and

Caps4StanleyCup2010: (October 15, 2009 2:20pm)

As a top producing mortgage originator in the Washington DC area HVCC has not given me one problem or issue... mainly because I do 90% FHA and VA loans. Our company has used a round robin system long before HVCC and the originators have never had a say so in who was doing the appraisal. I always have and will continue to talk to the appraiser about the property and/or contact for entry, but in 15 years have NEVER asked an appraiser to give me a value they did not feel was there. As one of my appraisers has said "there is no deal out there worth me losing my livelihood over just to keep a few people happy". If I am not going to risk losing my professional status, why would anyone ask an appraiser to do so? Bottom line, shady people in any capacity in this industry have mostly already been weeded out by the down turn. Stop with all the regulation intended to help the consumer when it is actually making it harder and more expensive for everyone. Recovery? Not anytime soon...

**IMPORTANT**: (October 15, 2009 2:20pm)

PS-KEEP KEEP HVCC, I find it humorus that you get so mad over somthing that is not affecting you at all. If you would like to contact me so I can tell you where you have gone terribly wrong, please contact me at through the link at the bottom of WWW.ANDREWCOUMO.Com (spell it as it is written). I will gladly send you my private phone number so you don't have to show your anger issues on a public forum. oh ya SHUT YOUR LIPS,

ALApprazer: (October 15, 2009 2:16pm)

We are all really missing the big picture. Quality. Comp checks are a business decision. The merits of which can be debated. Professionalism is the key. WE need to continue on the fight againest HVCC because the "quality" of product is what is suffering. I just spoke to a broker client that proved this point. He had an AMS / HVCC appraisal done. Public record had the indicated square footage approxiamtely 700 - 800 square feet smaller than the actual size. No additions, just the wrong model key in for the subject at the time public record was produced for the property. This was acknowledged by the appraiser to the home owner upon inspection. The appraiser still utilized the comparables that he/she had taken with them at the time of the inspection. Instead of doing addtional research, find appropriate comparables. Sad part is the office for the appraiser is in the same city as the subject property. You get what you pay for.

KEEP HVCC: (October 15, 2009 2:16pm)

ILL Appraiser....We were a broker for the last 20 years, but with all the changes we alligned with a Mortgage Banker. Mortgage Bankers are Direct Lenders, therefore we get to create our own HVCC Appraiser list, just like AMC's do, but we made our own. We colect $400 per appraisal and do not keep one cent of it, the appraiser gets it all. Whenever I order an appraisal it goes to one of the 5 on our rotation. It's really simple. Also, there are 29 other brokerages who have come onboard to the same Mortgage Banker we did, and it's only been 5 months. Brokers are going away unfortunately, but as Mortgage Bankers we have our own appraisers still. I do not get to choose which of the 5 appraisers gets my order, but they have all been really good in our own HVCC rotation. Lastly, My old Account Executives at my banks I brokered too recently told me they are losing all their brokers to Direct Lenders/Bankers, it's happening like mad. We do not use AMC's, the only one's who do are the ban

Your pants are down Bri: (October 15, 2009 2:14pm)

you said "You will be asked for your opinion of value before I place the order." Suppose I know the value before you place the order. Why would I give that information to you for free? Pay ME, sucker. More than likely, I didn't just appraise the property yesterday, and don't know what my opinion of value is when you call. More than likely, I'll have to develop a professional appraisal to 'know' what my supportable, professional opinion of value is. More than likely, when I sign the statement that says the results of my report were NOT conditioned on a predetermined value or range of value, it's accurate. More than likely when you get an appraisal that signature is by a BS artist, because we now know YOU didn't place the order unless the appraiser told you what his opinion of value was FIRST. So, when you say you shop, what you are really saying is you encourage fraud and corruption, by demanding an opinon of value be rendered before placing the order. Nice 2 know.

ILL Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 2:11pm)

Keep HVCC - How do you get to use the same five appraisers all of the time? Did your company set up their own AMC? Don't you have to use your investors AMC's? I'd like to recommend your implementation for some of my better brokers that can't use me now.

Starving Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 2:08pm)

4 sur F&B no how 2 get da post count up. Gr8 job gIs. That's license plate lingo for the sake of keeping it short which is a good idea. Wondering though, if their ideas are so profitable, why do guys like Zig write books telling every1 else how 2 do it? More $$$ in book writtin & sellin ideas to those who can't think for themselves & the empty minded...

**IMPORTANT**: (October 15, 2009 2:08pm)

HVCC, Were you actually talking to me. For starters I am not whinning, I am simply pointing out fact. None of your comment actually was about me except the part about shutting your lips, and your anger issue. you are a hot head aren't you. I hope you can over come your anger issues , so they don't cloud your issues anymore. Until this time can you please do what we all want and shut your d@mn lips.

KEEP HVCC: (October 15, 2009 2:02pm)

Dear Important...I hope you and the rest of your whining cousins on this website end up broke, homeless and walking dogs for a living. I never have heard such a large cry over the smallest issues(Comp Checks) in my entire life. If HVCC will keep you from making a living I am all for it. It's whiners like you and the rest of your co-horts who make the rest of us in this industry sick to our stomachs. I wish you had a camel so it would spit in your face for all of us to see and laugh. If you ever tell me to keep my lips shut again I will continue bashing you until you cry, you little wimp. Go HVCC!

**IMPORTANT**: (October 15, 2009 1:57pm)

Keep HVCC, I am pleased to hear the new system is working for you. My wife is a loan oficer as well, and she has only ran into a few hiccups. The problem here is that the HVCC was formed out of a black mail in order to stop some executive from getting fired or going to jail. It has not fixed the problem, only added a new layer over the wound. This will more likely sufficate the wound and prolong it rather thatn heal it. It has also opened the doors for this type of action to be repeated in all aspects of our lives. I am not a conspiracy freak, only a political enthusiast. Read the wesite article listed in my prior comment, and you would be better informed to voice your oppinion, but if you choose to be ignorant, we have enough of that already and please keep your lips shut. WWW.ANDREWCOUMO.COM

PAPPRAISER: (October 15, 2009 1:42pm)

Scape Goat Originator-I would also want to know that number. I personally have come across a lot of originators asking to inflate the value and guess what most of those origionators are out of business now which I think is good because as you said it seems to me that the honest hardworking ones are sticking around. I also found that most of the originators that were pushing so hard were newer originators and didn't seem to know or care about he repercussions of doing so.

Keep HVCC: (October 15, 2009 1:41pm)

I can just imagine that F & B really don't want to go to NY now to help with the Appraisers problem with HVCC. Yes, the same one's calling them and all lenders scum. Why should they help you now. HVCC hasn't been that bad for me, infact it's actually introduced me to some good appraisers. Our company put 5 appraisers on our HVCC rotation that came referred by our top 5 producers, one of which was mine. I found out I like some of these others I've never heard of even more than my own. My appraiser tended to whine sometimes about the smallest things, exactly like most of you are doing. Since these appraisers here have opened my eyes to their true beliefs about lenders, I say fudge 'em. Fend for yourself. I'll keep HVCC. I truly have not had one single problem since we went to Direct Lending and made our own HVCC group. Sorry whining appraisers, you lost my support. Go HVCC!

George Washington: (October 15, 2009 1:39pm)

Cuomo, the only thing you get right is riding your daddy's coat tail (Mario Cuomo, another bad NY mistake) and black mailing large companies to fulfill your agenda(no loan originators). When you really get something right, let me know.

Cuomo: (October 15, 2009 1:30pm)

Thanks for you support F & B, shows I got it right after all!

Scape Goat Originator: (October 15, 2009 1:29pm)

Ill Appraiser _ I agree with you and I hate AMC's because I cannot use an appraiser that I trust very much to deliver a trustworth report that never gets held up in undewriting and has a reliable report. I truly hate this because he deserves the work and is trustworthy. Its important to me to have my borrowers in the hands of qualifed people who are in an indirect way a reflection of my business. I can't stand the russian rulette approach of appraisals at this point. Quality used to get the job. Now my appraiser only gets the FHA loans since thats all I can send him.

**IMPORTANT**: (October 15, 2009 1:28pm)

Before I get any complaints on the upside down flag comment. I love my country and honor the soldiers and people who have faught for it by flying a flag daily. When a flag is flown upsidedown, it symbolizes distress. Make no doubt about it, the country is in distress. We are now spending trillions,yes trillions on a band-aid. That indicates a large wound. I now fly my flag upside down. I still honor those who have fought, but shows that help is needed. At this point the current administration is protecting their buts instead of making real decisions.

James the Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 1:27pm)

Mark L - Send me the pdf file of the 2 reports and I will go over hem and explain how the two appraisals came in a differnt values, I will not even charge you for the work, this time, call it a free pass on this one

Scape Goat Originator: (October 15, 2009 1:26pm)

Pappraiser - I completely agree withou that it is up to you as appraisers to have the backbone to say no. I dont think that most originators want to shoot in the wind to get the highest possible value. It truly doesn't do much to our fees by getting an extra 10k on a loan amount. I think that honest appraisers work with honest originators and any originators who tried the approach of hit the highest mark and see what happens likely arent around. I wonder how many loans truly are affected by over appraised values? I would be interested to know that number.

Shopping for a Value: (October 15, 2009 1:25pm)

Getting shopped Brian is not ok! You're asking for an appraisal before you hire us. You just don't get it. In the past I've been told that they need a value and if I said I'm not sure I didn't get the assignment. I don't like HVCC, but guys like you fcuked us over with your shopping for a value. You are Scum and you know it!

**IMPORTANT**: (October 15, 2009 1:21pm)

The answer to clulessdad: It is simple and what we have been asking for years! a fed owned hotline to report illegal value pressure. this could have been installed for a fraction of the price and the homeowner would not have had to pay the price.

James the Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 1:20pm)

ExAppraiser-NowLending - on your question about the OREA/Police, YES, we had an appraiser in Shasta County have his license taken away. My father even had to talk to OREA in the case as he did the third report on the same house. Bad part was OREA then tried to turn on him about his report, the lowest of the three report. But, he was a VP and Presidednt of Banks (now a Ceritified Appraiser) and knows more about appraisals then the guys at OREA and ended up setting them right, right in front of the judge. We still smile when we pay our OREA Fees. So YES, they do go after appraisers, but it was almost 3 years after the owner made his complaint to them

Syracuseappraiserguy: (October 15, 2009 1:16pm)

CLUELESSDAD: - seems to me-no loans are being made w/o an appraisal..not sure what the rules are for brokers, but why not start with the appraisal 1st to see if you have a loan or not?? UNFORTUNATELY you will have to tell the "client" there are hard fees to be paid to get a loan (the appraisal). Get 3 different appraisals (not comp checks) Send in all 3 appraisals to underwriting and let them tell you what they will loan on based on the 3 appraisals. If we as appraisers did not have to follow all the ridicoulous rules that have been set in place for us(like I'm sure brokers have)which take time and add nothing to the bottom line (estimating the market value) we could afford to lower our fees so it would be feasbile to have 3 appraisals completed and do what is everyones best interest. Yes most appraisers have a pretty good idea of a "value range" for a neighborhood, that is what we get paid for, but it is not an exact science.

LA Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 1:14pm)

The problem as I see it is with "shopping" for the right value, if you are getting appraisals until somebody hits the mark thats a problem, thats one of the problems Frank that created this big mess. Getting price check as you call it is ok in actuallity but its called an appraisal at that point, whether verbal or written(quick email)! If an appraiser follows the rules when completing a verbal appraisal and feels he shouldn't charge for it fine, its his/her problem...everyone should make that decision for themselfs(appraisers)! Also, you frank then should have a problem with the rules set forth rathen then attack the appraisers, appraisers dont set the rules buddy!

Clulessdad: (October 15, 2009 1:11pm)

I just made a deal that will give some lucky appraiser some business. OK-let me ask the one question I hope this blog starts to answer. If HVCC goes away, what valuation process replaces it that allows me to do my origination job, gives the bank and homeowner fair representation for the value of the house, provides adequate compensation to the appraisers, provides consumer protection and provides appraiser independence?

PAPPRAISER: (October 15, 2009 1:10pm)

20YRLO-Right on...I agree with you 100%. There is nothing wrong with comp checks so long as what we say is accepted and as stated if you don't like what we say just quietly move on to the next opinion. As you said in the end an accurate value is doing just for the homeowner.

Homeowner: (October 15, 2009 1:09pm)

Hi Mortgage Guys, I need extra 50K on my house loan for I a new corvette. Can you get it for me?

**IMPORTANT**: (October 15, 2009 1:08pm)

WOW, One day can ruin months of work. Stop your whining, your simple complaints ruin the big picture. I am an appraiser who does not care about the same issues as reported below USPAP, OREA, etc. I am simply dissapointed that one day I ran a succesfull buisness for the last 6 years, plenty of work,long term clients, no complaints from any board, clean report with very few addendums and the next day I was told by the AMC's (that I must now join) are not accepting aplications from appraiser who are not FHA/Certified. Buisness over. Thank you Andrew Cuomo. GO TO WWW.ANDREWCOUMO.COM (cut and paste, correct spelling needed) FORWARD THIS LINK. Loan officers, this is happening to you too, lets tell the government they need to stop and think before creating new "laws" that are not voted in by congress or the people. (READ THE POSTED WEBSITE) We are all together on this one and the government and the Appraisal Institute are not your freind. The country is in distress fly your flag upsidedown.

PAPPRAISER: (October 15, 2009 1:07pm)

I personally blame other appraisers for pushed value and not having the backbone to say no and turn away the job to get the money. If appraisers would just say the value that you need is not there and move on then the power is in our hands and no one elses. In the end it is the appraiser that will get fined and licenses suspended if our inflated value report gets reviewed. I think that the HVCC is unecessary. I think the reports just need to be reviewed and if there is an unjust value then it needs to be reported. It is that simple. Being asked to hit a certain number does not bother me. I either answer yes or no...

Lender: (October 15, 2009 1:04pm)

I heard the YSP will go away (Or to be used solely as a way to reduce costs) but the SRP will stay. SRP is only for Direct Lenders. I get .5% SRP on FNMA and 1.5% on FHA. Keep that in mind while you continue to broker. I loved brokering, but they are cutting them off at the neck with everything. The banks will get all the brokers, it's just how they want it. Watch rates go up from there. If you lose the broker, you lose the competition, it's that simple. For current brokers, to stay in business you really need to consider aligning with a mortgage banker to get thru this until everyone realizes we need the broker back.

Slim Shady: (October 15, 2009 1:00pm)

Hey Luigi, you scratch my back and I scratch your back, you's a good fella, we don't need no stink'n USPAP. You's loose your license then we wack somebody, no questions asked, whadda you say? Course no monkey bidness, the value is da value, you know what I mean. Hava nice day!

20YR LO: (October 15, 2009 12:56pm)

Lets all agree we all have licenses and rules. But maybe we are fighting differant arguments. Appriasers, LO's demanding value they need with the threat of no future work. But I believe all LO's are asking for are comp checks. And not the fact that they are ilegal we get it. But really AGAIN are you telling me you never provided comp checks before HVCC? I think this all started with a statement from Frank or Brian that has gone wild. This is not about chalenging appraisers competency or rules, but about getting back to common sense and doing right for our customers, the homeowner.

PAPPRAISER: (October 15, 2009 12:56pm)

Scape Goat Originator-We as appraisers are well aware that our reports get reviewed by several people before, during and after the loan funds and even on the secondary market when the loan gets sold the appraisal again gets reviewed but that is after the money has been taken from the borrower for the appraisal and if no originator wants a pushed value on an appraisal then why do so many of you push so hard to get us to inflate the value and it happens more than not and then hope it will pass underwriting? I have a second job so appraising is extra money for myself so anytime I have been asked and asked and asked again to push value, I just say no and move on so I could personally care less if I get the job or not based on a pushed value but in reality it has been a fact that originators will ask appraisers to hit a certain number to get the work and you know that. It is up to us as appraisers as to whether or not we have the backbone to say no. Just like anything else in life

CA Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 12:53pm)

Slim Shady, believe me that with 110 co-sponsors and growing for HR3044 there are plenty of people in DC that care about appraisers and our profession. In 2 years the appraisal profession will still be around and going strong.

ILL Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 12:40pm)

Scapegoat - Quality used to get the job. Now the AMC gets the job and whoever they decide to assign it to for the lowest fee, I assume.

sadbuttrue: (October 15, 2009 12:39pm)

Goodguy- It's nice to know you can't read either. I said it takes about 1000 customers to get 100 loans and that is a verifiable number from my data base of clients. Do you think you are the only one who's life would change with a fine and a loss of a license. My license hangs in my states SEC's office and I'll bet yours doesn't get anywherre close to your states SEC's office. You just don't get it. NOTHING in this world is "cut and dry". Look, I'll make it simple as I can for you--Let anyone out there that has been through the mortgage process read your quotes and those from people like you--you and others like you wouldn't have a job. No mortgage backed loan is simple and has a standard way, there are small variances in all of them, so why should an appraisal and an appraiser be the only cookie cutter part of the loan? There are a lot of very good appraisers out there that do there job very well without following uspap to the letter.

Kevin: (October 15, 2009 12:38pm)

What's there to push? The new RESPA law has already been put into place. Am I missing something? It is a little hard keeping up with daily regulation of the industry

goodguy: (October 15, 2009 12:38pm)

uspap is not state-state, its the "national uniform standards to professional appraisal practice", used nationally. WHAT IS STATE TO STATE is the requirement in geographic competency. Some states have a "rule set" while others do not. If a person lived in city A, moved 3 hrs away to city B, but had to go back to city A the next day- they would still be competent. EdC proving he doesnt FULLY understand the rules. Ask any appraiser who has taken the new nationalized standard test and they can tell the rules.

real appraiser: (October 15, 2009 12:37pm)

Wow, the ignorance of laws amd rules here is amazing. We could all get along, but many here dont want to. IF you pay for the appraisal you own it, WRONG, comp searches dont break USPAP, WRONG. No wonder we are where we are at, Lawyers deciding our fate. I am an appraiser who works for AMC's and still has lenders/fha full fee. I still want HVCC gone because it hurts the industry. But many of you hurt it more than HVCC. If you call me out, you are one of them. I am sure cluelessdad and I agree that if everyone stops bickering, we could all learn alot, But it does not seem like thats were this is headed

Slim Shady: (October 15, 2009 12:37pm)

Seems most of you are still driving your grandma's old Chevy wagon. HVCC is not going to go away based on any congressman I been in contact with. It will be reviewed and most likely re-written but not recinded. Look-ups, pencil searches, whatever you want to call them will not be back and mortgage brokers ordering their own appraisals will not be back either so most of this thread conversation is a moot point with minimal value. With what is being discussed and envisioned in DC, appraisers and mortgage brokers will be luck to even exist in their present structure within 2 years. So I suggest most of you save your breath for some usefull ideas or fade away with the dust, please send a postcard for the memories.

20YR LO: (October 15, 2009 12:36pm)

brianr567, Not sure I even understand what you are trying to say, "no corner here". As far as leaving the business, don't have to I work with strong knowlegable ethical appraisers that help me make sound decisions for OUR CUSTOMERS,regardless of silly USPAP Regulations. Show me an appraiser that did not work hand in hand with there LO's helping with comp checks without compensation, and I will show you an appraiser that applauds HVCC. Please dont confuse what I'm saying with having appraisers in my pocket (yes men)forcing value on them, just knowlegable ethical and apprecited appraisers here based on accuracy.

Scape Goat Originator: (October 15, 2009 12:35pm)

It seems to me that the bent appraisers here are missing something when they point the finger about inflated values. Has anyone considered that the appraisal has to go to the underwriter for review and approval, it isn't up to me to approve your work? What I hear the appraisers on this site saying is "woe is me, I have to get high value or I don't get the business". Get over you bunch of whiners. The reality is the bank is the one who decides if your appraisal is crap or not. So if you are that pressed to deliver high value that is out of scope for the market then it will be obvious to the "desk review" or underwriter employed by the lender and your "inflated value" would be rejected. No originator wants appraisals that do not pass the sniff test and get denied by the lender for being out of scope. If you do that then you wont get the business because your quality doesn't pass. It's not all about the "number". Unsaported high value is as bad as low value. Quality gets the job!

Clulessdad: (October 15, 2009 12:34pm)

EDC-good post-later all

EdC: (October 15, 2009 12:32pm)

To be fair, USPAP is law in some states (maybe 1-3), beyond the state boards. So in asking for comp checks in those states is breaking the law. I don't know the punishment. It's not law here. BTW, AMC's are not USPAP compliant, they violate USPAP by hiring out of area appraisers -for one. They're HAVOCC compliant is all. This is my last post for today. I felt I had to intervene on appraisers behalf as they were portaying themselves as idiots and don't seem to understand the symbiotic relationship we share, as you brokers do. Have a good one. Check your e-mails for the lastest from NAMB and HR 3126 "Call to action" Get your hate HVCC on and contact your state reps. Together we can beat this abomination and send it back to the hell it was spawned from.

ExAppraiser-NowLending: (October 15, 2009 12:30pm)

I never did receive an answer to my question about the "USPAP/OREA Police?" Just curious here...Has anyone ever heard of OREA actually auditing & fining appraisers? I was an appraiser, and know a ton of appraisers, and not one of them has ever received anything from OREA except for a bill to renew their license. Again, just curious...

Clulessdad: (October 15, 2009 12:30pm)

One last comment and I have to go earn some money-To all appraisers and USPAP vs. business needs. Every LO does routine credit checks for borrowers. Do you know that it is illegal for us to run them without the borrowers written authorization? There are many times I don't get a signed statement, but just ask the Borrowers if it is all right to run their credit and give them a copy. I don't charge the $12 it costs to run it and the next hour to analyze it. They freely give me their personal info and those that object I aks if they can run it themselves and give me a copy. Not the online versions, a real mortgage credit report. I am honest with my clients and can't spend an hour chasing down their signatures. It isn't practical and it is not good business. Put me in jail, handcuff me, throw away the key,and beat me (I may actually like that-lol) but I haven't done anything unethical against the clients but help them. Same with giving me public information and your valuation methodology

ILL Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 12:29pm)

Sadbuttrue - Our client is whoever orders the appraisal. Plain and simple. And we are not to advocate any position over another - buyer or seller, realtor or lender. We are to be unbiased, objective, and contracted to perform one thing - estimate market value which is the most probable price a property will bring in the market, all parties being knowledgeable and without duress (paraphrased)unless otherwise stipulated and reported within the report.

Todd: (October 15, 2009 12:27pm)

You guys need to keep pushing the YSP proposal from the fed. I cannot believe how few loan officers/brokers are posting comments and reating to this horrible proposal. Todd - Austin, TX

PAPPRAISER: (October 15, 2009 12:26pm)

I think there is just a litte bit of confusion between shopping and number hitting. I personally have had loan officers tell me either I hit a certain number that is highly pushed or else they will find someone who can and I always tell them go right ahead and bye bye. Those people are I think what is being referred to as "scum". Shopping is a different story. I as an appraiser see nothing wrong with asking what I feel a property is worth and then my client shopping another appraiser to get their opinion. It may be higher or lower again depending on how they adjust and the databases available to them. In my opinion there is a difference between the two business practices.

goodguy: (October 15, 2009 12:25pm)

sadbut, appraisers agree nobody should be ripped off, this includes us. If you order an appraisal, we do not talk about it with other banks and LO's, therefore you are the client.These are the rules that apparently nobody has to follow but us. You order, you pay, you get full customer service. If its takes 1000 customers to close a loan, it may take 100 for the next guy. Thats not a verifiable #. Im sorry, but you cant break the rules, if the rules change and my entire livelyhood, including fines, prison etc, then lets play ball. Until then, there is no $350 deal worth the risk. A small USPAP VIOLATION in my state, which could be as simple as forgetting to mark "aluminum gutter" will result in a fine of about 300 dollars, two days of classroom time, including USPAP, and a 30 day license suspension. What are your thought now?

sadbuttrue: (October 15, 2009 12:18pm)

Hey goodguy, You and other appraisers like you are the reason there are problems. Are you really going to tell me the AMC or the bank is your customer just because it is defined as such in some absurd law or ruling. The truth is that whoever pays for that appraisal IS the customer. If a snake tells you it is a rabbit--it's not- it's a snake even if it uses some absurd ruling or law to justify it's story. MY ONE DEAL--You and the other appraisers like you need to know the truth--it takes about 1000 customers to get 100 loans and that means I have a lot more going on than one deal. I also have to take training--difference is it's every year not every two. I'm not a villan or a bad person because I understand how the loan process works and I know there are lots of times I need an approximate value ahead of an appraisal. All the appraisers that agree with you and your beliefs have no one's interest in mind but your own. Again hiding behind uspap to justify your means is terrible

brianr567: (October 15, 2009 12:18pm)

Raise the AMC fees and you will never hear an appraiser complaint again. Theres no corner, there are the rules and unfortunately we have to refer to USPAP compliant AMC's to stay within the law. Theres no corner here, its the the truth 20LO, like it or leave it.

20YR LO: (October 15, 2009 12:11pm)

Appriasers keep the talking point of USPAP regulations,and the fact LO's not having any liability. We have are own rules and regulations and adhere to them the best we can while also being resonable. How many of us do not give the APR when quoting rates? Yeah it is illegal. But we do it because rate depends on credit score,and LTV. We would have to have a full loan package and appraisal just to quote an accuarate rate. Is this in the best interest of the consumer? This is the way we have all worked together in the past (LO's & Appraisers). Again why the big issue today when it was not prior to HVCC. Appraisers please tell me if I am wrong, you never did value checks prior to this discussion & HVCC. Trust me I am not trying to bash you I apprecciate most of you, but I think we are losing sight of our common goals. I feel that you have backed yourself into a corner with this USPAP thing, and do not know how to get back out. Lets all drop it and get back to busniess.

Clulessdad: (October 15, 2009 12:11pm)

to all appraisers out there. All LO's need you and your expertise to get a transaction done. Personally, even at $350 or $500 /appraisal, it is grossly underpaid and just reaks of poor quality. Low compensation and poor quality go hand in hand and the incorporating a non value added entity like AMC's is a joke. Give me an independent well experienced appraiser any day. I don't care how much you charge if you do a good job, and in the process help me do mine. And quite honestly I have NEVER had a borrower question your fees. So what CAN you give me to help me do mine?

SF Big Dawg: (October 15, 2009 12:11pm)

Wow! I didn't read all of this but it is amazing how the same people who have the most to gain by Frank and Brians hard work of getting the petition signed and getting it to Washington are the one's biteing their heads off. So which is better having to be "shopped" occasionally or being forced for the most part out of business? I for one do not use a lot of appraisers as I am sure is the case with Brian and Frank but mention the words "work for free" and boy we get testy. As retail loan officers I WISH I got paid for every good faith I did. Or better yet how about every person that comes to me via a realtor who I run credit for and there is no way they can qualify. Should I bill the realtors for the credit reports? By signing the petition we as brokers are trying to support appraisers who we can call "partners" part of that means that you aren't going to get every deal but it will amount to more money and business versus the current alternative...HVCC. WAKE UP!

Congressman: (October 15, 2009 12:08pm)

Hurry delete this post discussion before someone else in Washington read it! It only enforces why the HVCC is needed.

Leslie S. Denver: (October 15, 2009 12:02pm)

I find it hard to believe that appraisers are so delicate that they can't handle being questioned. If I get questions, I make darn sure I have answers. And, yes, I DO KNOW the appraisal process. I make it my business to read every appraisal, front to back, and yes, I found numerous errors. Even the wrong pictures have showed up in some of my appraisals. So, please! Don't be so guarded about what you do. It's not exactly brain surgery, now, is it? As for the FG (Fed Gov) hiring more and more people to review files... I have no fear. My files will pass any scrutiny. But I object to the spending of more and more money for redundant oversight. As if this will benefit even one consumer. I think not.

real appraiser: (October 15, 2009 12:00pm)

TO ALL, Hope this is my last post today, but you do realize that HVCC was meant to stop what most of you are arguing for. if todays post were watched by those in power, they would make the HVCC permanent and you do not even see it, pretty sad. As appraiser, after 28 months, (hopefully 07/2010) the HVCC dies and we go back to our old ways, what happens to brokers. I want my clients back, Do you want your appraisers back? does not seem so.

goodguy: (October 15, 2009 11:59am)

sadbuttrue, our customer as defined - is whoever orders the appraisal, again read uspap. we deserve to get paid everytime b/c our job is to render supportable opinions of value. the rules are the rules. driving too fast may get me a fine and a rise in insurance, but breaking the law could eliminate my entire livelyhood, time-spent to get here, and any future business. Your one deal is not worth the risk, sorry. No one is hiding behind uspap, we are just arguing that we as appraisers are the only ones having to follow it and contantly being pushed by those who have never even read it. There is a reason we have to take a USPAP update course every two years, b/c its serious, and verify to the state that we have done so. It's only a matter of time b4 you will have to do the same.

Clulessdad: (October 15, 2009 11:57am)

RC appraiser- I am beginning to not understand your definition of comp check. If I ask you to provide a list of all the sales data (with any details to sqft, site area bed/bath count, if available), from multiple databases and public records and ask you what characteristics in this neighborhood would you see giving the highest addition or subtraction in value(not give a value range)that is illegal with USPAP? Is that what you call a "comp check?"

EdC: (October 15, 2009 11:57am)

Hey with that last post, I didn't mean to give you MB's any ideas. I know you guys are honest and wouldn't try that. FYI I just got a NAMB e-mail about the HVCC. October 15, 2009 Dear Appraisers, Your immediate action is required! Today in Congress, the House Financial Services Committee will mark up and consider amendments to H.R. 3126, the “Consumer Financial Protection Agency Act of 2009.” One amendment, to be introduced by Reps. Donald Manzullo (R-IL), Travis Childers (D-MS), Gary Miller (R-CA), and Michele Bachmann (R-MN), would completely nullify the Home Valuation Code of Conduct (HVCC). Here is your opportunity to help fight the HVCC! Click here for a list of Congressmen on the Financial Services Committee. http://capwiz.com/namb/dbq/officials/ Please call you Congressman today and ask them to support any legislation stopping the HVCC. Click here to find your Congressman’s contact information. Below are some talking points that you can use in your conversation, but also it is e

ExAppraiser-NowLending: (October 15, 2009 11:52am)

Just curious here......All these appraisers keep talking about keeping a complete work-up file if they were to complete a comp check. Has anyone ever heard of OREA actually auditing appraisers? Again, just curious.

EdC: (October 15, 2009 11:51am)

ILL appraiser : Maybe you should pay the mortgage broker for getting you the job. Sounds fair to me. Amc 60% cut sound fair to you?

sadbuttrue: (October 15, 2009 11:50am)

Who exactly is the customer to the appraisers out there reading this?I find it hard to believe what I've been reading today from appraisers.How do appraisers deserve to be paid every time they offer their opinion and NO one else in the process is allowed that luxery.USPAP or not, please quit being holier than you are.Do you drive over the speed limit?Do you roll through a stop sign.Do you do anything in your life that crosses the letter of the law.I'll bet you do.On that point I'll remind you that it is the customer in our office that pays you,NOT the LO's.If you can't give me a price range so I know wether or not to proceed on a loan, I don't need you but my customer sure doen't need you.If you are going to hide behind the USPAP as your reasoning, then please don't break any other laws that are out there.I consult for free all the time in hopes of getting future business, appraisers should do the same and remember it's the people writing the checks that pay the the real money.

real appraiser: (October 15, 2009 11:50am)

SO-CAL-5150-Appraiser-GAL. I wish I could apologize for the animals here, but as an appraiser, I feel for you, sorry. The sad part is they dont get that If they tweak HVCC, limit distance for appraisers, pay higher fees, extend turn around times and such, which is already in the works, the only ones that will pay for this are these brokers. Instead of helping like clulessdad and others like him, they are actually pushing us away. They do not realize HVCC was meant to get rid of them not us. I dont get it either. and clulessdad, don't bother responding to idiots, they are not near your level and dont deserve your time. you seem like a good guy, the rest of us get you.

RC Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 11:50am)

LENDER WHO KNOWS BETTER: How do you know that you have never asked an appraiser to break the rules if you don't know what the rules are? Appraisers are bound by USPAP and I really don't believe you know anything about the Uniform Standards of Professional Appraisal Practice. Like it or not, if it makes sense or not, appraisers have to follow these standards or jeopardize their licenses. Many of you don't see anything wrong with bending or even breaking the rules. A strong indication of a major problem with this country. The comp checks that you request are against USPAP.

ILL Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 11:46am)

Here's a thought, or two. All of those bad appraisals you're getting from the AMC appraisers...send them to the appropriate disciplinary board of your state licensing department. Actions speak louder than words. As for "comp checks", yes we can lose our licenses by doing them and pay some hefty fines because the government (USPAP) has said so unless we keep a full "work file" on each one that we do. This work file is to include everything it took to come up with a value or range of values. All of our info - scope of work, intended users, data, sources, analysis, and reconciliation - everything a full appraisal requires. And I'm to do this for free? $50?

SO-CAL-5150-Appraiser-GAL: (October 15, 2009 11:41am)

to the guy who suggested physically assalting me.....Your mom must be proud.... I didnt know OJ was allowed internet access??.....jerk

Shelter Island Capital SD: (October 15, 2009 11:40am)

Same property: 1st appraisal $555K we were dumbfounded. Found some slight issues on the report(the person who inspected the property wasn't the appraiser who signed the report) reported them to the lender and OREA . Lender paid for a new appraisal, honored original lock, and it came in at $740K 2 weeks later. Go Figure.

EdC: (October 15, 2009 11:40am)

I don't know what's the matter with appraisers. Honestly. If you could save a homeowner $400 for your inspection, $400 they couldn't afford and it's better spent on fixing their broken down truck - wouldn't you? Or is it all me me me and get mine. Is there no sense of public service? Is there no sense of common decency? Get over yourself. You're obviously not as important as you think you are - the HVCC made that point. USPAP is a fluid, changing document that is amended and changed continually depending on societies morays. It isn't law yet in all states. Just a few. Why are appraisers so selfish? Other trades aren't. It makes no sense to me. "PhatBanker" had an important post, let the brokers take over the board. You've made your point - you're not skilled enough to do comp checks and give a value range or a yes or a no that you can back up so it's legal. Stay away from them until you have enough experience to be able to do them legally. Let the brokers have the board - OK?!! Thanks

GIVEMEABREAK: (October 15, 2009 11:38am)

Ezradams, How hard is it to look at the MLS and give an opinion. Yes they made it illegal. But, that law does not make sence. A client should go ahead and spend the money to find out it does not work. WHen a good appraisere can give a quick check and save everybody time and money. OH thats right you do not get paid. But, you provided a very valuable servie in which the LO just reward you with more transactions. By the way we are not even suppose to give you a hint of what value we need. But, have to give you the PC upfront. Just because the Gov. makes a law does not make it right or good.

real appraiser: (October 15, 2009 11:37am)

EdC: never said I did not give heads up to my trusted clients when the order was sent over and i started my research, a little bit different than getting a comp check before and not an order, maybe my clients value my time. No disrespect to you but the "in my mind" is crazy. You could be the most experiences appraiser in the world and things change unless your market is 90% cookie cutters. Where i live the same gla two blocks apart may have a +/-50,000 difference, hell, the same builder model on the same street can have 20k in options and view. If you are talking all markets in the USA, you are not right, You are dead wrong. Well Maybe your "right in your own Mind"! still freaky

TBWS Support: (October 15, 2009 11:37am)

Due to some complaints about extra-long posts we've implemented a 1000 character limit. You'll see your limit and characters remaining when you enter your post. Thanks for all the feedback!

Clulessdad: (October 15, 2009 11:36am)

Dog'nthebroker-I find your comment amusing. I am 56 years old, have an MBA, have a DRE broker's license, been happily married for 30 years, have 2 great kids and soon a grandkid, have little overhead in my business, can give the borrower's a better deal, have owned and built my own homes, have 20 years of executive management and have 15 years of experience in solving all the various problems in about 2000 real estate transactions. I am also available 24/7. So go to the 22 year old kid who is on a quota working an 8 to 5 job at BofA. The difference is like going to a medical specialist versus an HMO. It is always your choice and I respect that. But try getting a hold of the guy at BofA to solve your income,title or credit issue on a Sat. Bottom line is that I think that I and all brokers add value to the process.

AZguy: (October 15, 2009 11:36am)

Dog'nthBroker, LOL I think this is a joke. You just posted this to see who you can rile up. Its way too stupid to be real so nice going. I am sure it will spur up some responses. Either you area an LO with a sense of humor or just an idiot who doesn't know anything. LOL, funny either way.

AppraiserBasedOnThisPlanet: (October 15, 2009 11:36am)

Indepenent Fee Appraisers: Is there anyone out there who knows enough about Free Trade to know if the creation of the AMCs is in violation of Free Trade? Essentially they have Monopolized our industry and there is no Free Trade. There is no Capitalism or Free Trade. Is there an attorney who knows how to start a Class Action Law Suit? This HVCC crap has to stop. It is killing the industry.

FED up: (October 15, 2009 11:34am)

So why are there so many banks in trouble and getting bailed out...oh yeah because they were crooked and greedy. Countrywide was a nice safe company that people felt very comfortable with right? They may have almost single handidly caused a downslide, not to mention the fact that they had their hands in all parts of the business...talk about unethical...They pressured clients to use their appraiser, title co, insurance and they were all overpriced, but the client felt comfortable because they were such a large institution. Give me a break, the brokers are not to blame, I'm not saying that their wern't unethical brokers, but you can't put that on the whole industry.

donewell appraiser.: (October 15, 2009 11:33am)

As an appraiser I can say something most all appraisers could agree with: If AMC'c provided consistent work, for a nice fee of around.....say $500 dollars, you would never hear a peep from us. Unfortunately it's one headache or the other. AMC's do eliminate listening to LO's complaints and pushes (and every appraiser experienced this). Most appraisers would agree that HVCC is a good thing if turn-times, fees, and consistent work were available. I hate to tell you this LO's, but if what I have mentioned was the case, we would have forgotten about you a long time ago. It's all about getting paid for the effort and time that you have put in, and if the LO's dont like it too bad, eventually all appraisers will be on the bandwagon of "no free comp checks". What will you do then? If the AMC's get regulated and we start seeing some great fees and consistent business, we'll be in the shadows even more than ever and loving every minute of it. HVCC cab be a great thing for appraisers if we all stick together and show our worth. There arent many deals being done without an appraisal, and the necessity should be value enough to start seeing some higher fees. Its just a matter of a few weeks of protest and LO's and banks will be begging us for $75 comp checks, nevermind HVCC got rid of your headaches.

typically lower rates but still make money.: (October 15, 2009 11:29am)

Wholesale to retail. what a concept. Why don't they go after all retailers. They mark up the price and not all the same. It is called shopping. If they take away the ability to be more competitive then you will eventually have an monoploy and higher rates.

REALLY: (October 15, 2009 11:27am)

DumbAssAppraise, HERE IS YOUR SECOND OPINION, CUT IT OFF AT THE NECK AND WE WILL ALL BE FINE, ER I MEAN YOU WILL BE FINE. OH AND THANKS FOR PROVING THE POINT!!!

SmartAssAppraiser: (October 15, 2009 11:26am)

To DumbAssAppraiser make sure you go see your second doctor and pay him! Don't just ask him over the phone for a free quick answer.

Ezradams: (October 15, 2009 11:26am)

Comments : Brian, Frank, Wow! We need to work together in an effort to kill the HVCC. Please be more careful with your comments as they could be used against you in this fight. I understand your position and have worked with many loan officers who feel the same way as you guys do. Imagine if Cuomo's staff got a hold of the videos from the past 2 days.....your trip would be wasted. This is not a gray issue....it's black and white. Shopping for appraisers by using comp checks is illegal, no question about it. It may not be illegal for you, but an appraiser that performs a comp check that results in a value or range of value is not in compliance with USPAP, hence all the crazy responses the past 2 days. The only way an appraiser can provide a value or range of value is if they have enough info in their file to support it. (Probably about the same amount of info and time it would take to do a complete report!) I'm surprised that you guys don't understand this....I thought you were more knowledgeable. It's never too late to say you're sorry or acknowledge an error in judgment. You'll gain the respect back from a bunch of us. Maybe on tomorrow's video?

EdC: (October 15, 2009 11:26am)

You've got it all wrong real appraiser. Of course things change from a comp check to actual inspection - sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. It's NEVER 90% of the time. Maybe 1-5%. I guess because I only deal with honest and ethical brokers. I have a CYA disclaimer I always use that things could change if the home is not as portrayed. See, that's experience. So is having an appraisal completed in your mind before the inspection. It saves time, take the comp photos while you're on your way to the inspection. Anyway, you're wrong, I'm right - I want to hear what the brokers here think about PhatBankers post. Looks interesting. Have a good day real app.

Dog'ntheBroker: (October 15, 2009 11:24am)

The mortgage broker business is a washed up business model. Why use a broker when the borrower can just go to the bank and get their own loan? If I had the power to make the mortgage broker business go away, I would. If you want to be a loan originator, go work for a bank. If credit or prooperty status or other anamoly makes the transaction difficult the loan officer is certainly qualified to guide the borrower in the right manner so as to correct the condition. Abolish the mortgage broker!!! Who needs em? Only an idiot needs a broker to get them a loan.

AZguy: (October 15, 2009 11:23am)

I have seen deals go south simply because the termite inspector found evidence of infestation, sometimes "prior infestation" but clean now. When have you ever heard of a termite inspector or home inspector give an opinion of their results before they were paid and the service completed? How many times did you shop around till you got the results needed to make the deal work? Nothing can substitute for a good professional appraiser and HVCC is not allowing us to pick the best. This industry needs cleaning up but we dont need HVCC shoved down our throats only to creat new and improved problems. RE: comp checks... I have always been able to ge comp checks when needed, I never presented them to anyone as official nor did I go around telling everyone who gave it to me. I used it as it was meant to be used, I gave it as an opinion that this property "may" not apprais and let the client decide if they wanted to proceed. In a sale they almost always proceeded. In a refi we sometimes halted the process altogether. We are in this mess because we have too many inexperienced or greedy and yes even a bunch of scum in the mix on both sides of the isle... originators and appraisers. Now the scum arm of the government imposed fixes for the mess and guess what? they made it worse. go figure.

On the rocks: (October 15, 2009 11:22am)

Brian, it looks like you need a drink. Don't get too fired up over a few appraiser's having a difference of opinion with you. Keep on rockin' in the controlled world buddy!

DumbAssAppraiser: (October 15, 2009 11:18am)

I crushed my big toe last week and the Doctor told me that he would have to cut it off. I think I'll get a 2nd opinion.

20YR LO: (October 15, 2009 11:17am)

REAL APPRAISER & ME: Again the point is not the fact that it is illegal, I agree per USPAP it is. But really if you believe that if you do a comp for a LO that you have had a professional relationship with and he will turn you in for not reaching the value you estimated, you are doing something wrong or working with the wrong kind of people. And again, can any of you appaisers say that you did not work with your LO's on value checks prior to HVCC, why is this now just becoming an issue? I am not talking about shopping for the appraiser with the highest value but the appriaser with the most knowledge of the specific area the property is located.

PhatBanker: (October 15, 2009 11:17am)

I was at the MBA convention and although the panelist said that they thought that mortgage brokers and independent correspondent lenders should survive...that there will definitely be increased scrutiny on net worth and making sure that the brokers and lenders have more "skin " in the game. They all basically had the same sentiment that those that are paid the most ( brokers ) seem to have to least amount of risk as they are not going to be directly subject to repurchases and buybacks. Also I sat in on the panel with the Fed attorney (that is helping to draft legislation) and he said that they are not out to ban YSP…and in fact he has the comment someone by one loan broker sent in that said “Stop the ban of YSP” posted on his wall…so we all have to be careful when commenting on the Fed ruling 1366 as YSP are not being eliminated…they are looking for comments on how we can be compensated on something other than interest rates, loan terms…etc…he was pretty vague as to what exactly they were looking for comments on. He wants to have some intelligent comments that will center around a compensation program that will not allow for a borrower to be charged a higher rate and by doing so the loan officer is paid more…so they want same compensation to loan officer regardless of interest rate or loan type…but they do not prohibit a no point at 5.25% and a no point no closing at 5.5%...they just want o make sure that the YSP or SRP is being given back to the consumer as a credit towards closing costs and not simply being pocketed by a greedy loan officer taking advantage of an unsuspecting borrower…they are also worried that allowing for pay based on loan size will be detrimental to lower loan amounts…so we have to be very careful not to keep telling them that this will hurt lower loan amounts or they may ban compensation based on loan amounts as well.

PhatBanker: (October 15, 2009 11:15am)

I was at the MBA convention and although the panelist said that they thought that mortgage brokers and independent correspondent lenders should survive...that there will definitely be increased scrutiny on net worth and making sure that the brokers and lenders have more "skin " in the game. They all basically had the same sentiment that those that are paid the most ( brokers ) seem to have to least amount of risk as they are not going to be directly subject to repurchases and buybacks. Also I sat in on the panel with the Fed attorney (that is helping to draft legislation) and he said that they are not out to ban YSP…and in fact he has the comment someone by one loan broker sent in that said “Stop the ban of YSP” posted on his wall…so we all have to be careful when commenting on the Fed ruling 1366 as YSP are not being eliminated…they are looking for comments on how we can be compensated on something other than interest rates, loan terms…etc…he was pretty vague as to what exactly they were looking for comments on. He wants to have some intelligent comments that will center around a compensation program that will not allow for a borrower to be charged a higher rate and by doing so the loan officer is paid more…so they want same compensation to loan officer regardless of interest rate or loan type…but they do not prohibit a no point at 5.25% and a no point no closing at 5.5%...they just want o make sure that the YSP or SRP is being given back to the consumer as a credit towards closing costs and not simply being pocketed by a greedy loan officer taking advantage of an unsuspecting borrower…they are also worried that allowing for pay based on loan size will be detrimental to lower loan amounts…so we have to be very careful not to keep telling them that this will hurt lower loan amounts or they may ban compensation based on loan amounts as well.

real appraiser: (October 15, 2009 11:14am)

I know you will all rip this apart, but what LO here would want his house valued from an appraiser from a phone call. Do you guys think if doctors heard your symptoms on the phone he could diagnose without doing a thorough check up, would you take his advice. NO. I am not comparing our work to a medical check up, but only one appraiser here, EdC, says he "can do it in his mind", which is real freaky to me. As long as you understand its a guess and you do not get mad later, if the house is smaller the public record, or has not even been vacuumed in 20 years, much less repaired, than there is no problem. But 90% will blame the appraiser and never use him again. The remaining 10% of you are honest and I believe that, but every appraiser here, expect EdC, will tell you this is more frequent than you guys will admit.

PhatBanker: (October 15, 2009 11:12am)

I was at the MBA convention and although the panelist said that they thought that mortgage brokers and independent correspondent lenders should survive...that they will definitely be increased scrutiny on net worth and making sure that the brokers and lenders have more "skin " in the game. They all basically had the same sentiment that those that are paid the most ( brokers ) seem to have to least amount of risk as they are not going to be directly subject to repurchases and buybacks. Also I sat in on the panel with the Fed attorney (that is helping to draft legislation) and he said that they are not out to ban YSP…and in fact he has the comment someone by one loan broker sent in that said “Stop the ban of YSP” posted on his wall…so we all have to be careful when commenting on the Fed ruling 1366 as YSP are not being eliminated…they are looking for comments on how we can be compensated on something other than interest rates, loan terms…etc…he was pretty vague as to what exactly they were looking for comments on. He wants to have some intelligent comments that will center around a compensation program that will not allow for a borrower to be charged a higher rate and by doing so the loan officer is paid more…so they want same compensation to loan officer regardless of interest rate or loan type…but they do not prohibit a no point at 5.25% and a no point no closing at 5.5%...they just want o make sure that the YSP or SRP is being given back to the consumer as a credit towards closing costs and not simply being pocketed by a greedy loan officer taking advantage of an unsuspecting borrower…they are also worried that allowing for pay based on loan size will be detrimental to lower loan amounts…so we have to be very careful not to keep telling them that this will hurt lower loan amounts or they may ban compensation based on loan amounts as well.

FED up: (October 15, 2009 11:12am)

What's the opposite of PRO...Exactly...CON. So what is the opposite of PROGRESS...Right again...CONGRESS. Therefore, let's get them out of our business so we can move inventory and get the economy flowing again!!!

PhatBanker: (October 15, 2009 11:10am)

I was at the MBA convention and although the panelist said that they thought that mortgage brokers and independent correspondent lenders should survive...that they will definitely be increased scrutiny on net worth and making sure that the brokers and lenders have more "skin " in the game. They all basically had the same sentiment that those that are paid the most ( brokers ) seem to have to least amount of risk as they are not going to be directly subject to repurchases and buybacks. Also I sat in on the panel with the Fed attorney (that is helping to draft legislation) and he said that they are not out to ban YSP…and in fact he has the comment someone by one loan broker sent in that said “Stop the ban of YSP” posted on his wall…so we all have to be careful when commenting on the Fed ruling 1366 as YSP are not being eliminated…they are looking for comments on how we can be compensated on something other than interest rates, loan terms…etc…he was pretty vague as to what exactly they were looking for comments on. He wants to have some intelligent comments that will center around a compensation program that will not allow for a borrower to be charged a higher rate and by doing so the loan officer is paid more…so they want same compensation to loan officer regardless of interest rate or loan type…but they do not prohibit a no point at 5.25% and a no point no closing at 5.5%...they just want o make sure that the YSP or SRP is being given back to the consumer as a credit towards closing costs and not simply being pocketed by a greedy loan officer taking advantage of an unsuspecting borrower…they are also worried that allowing for pay based on loan size will be detrimental to lower loan amounts…so we have to be very careful not to keep telling them that this will hurt lower loan amounts or they may ban compensation based on loan amounts as well.

PhatBanker: (October 15, 2009 11:08am)

64WKNI was at the MBA convention and although the panelist said that they thought that mortgage brokers and independent correspondent lenders should survive...that they will definitely be increased scrutiny on net worth and making sure that the brokers and lenders have more "skin " in the game. They all basically had the same sentiment that those that are paid the most ( brokers ) seem to have to least amount of risk as they are not going to be directly subject to repurchases and buybacks. Also I sat in on the panel with the Fed attorney (that is helping to draft legislation) and he said that they are not out to ban YSP…and in fact he has the comment someone by one loan broker sent in that said “Stop the ban of YSP” posted on his wall…so we all have to be careful when commenting on the Fed ruling 1366 as YSP are not being eliminated…they are looking for comments on how we can be compensated on something other than interest rates, loan terms…etc…he was pretty vague as to what exactly they were looking for comments on. He wants to have some intelligent comments that will center around a compensation program that will not allow for a borrower to be charged a higher rate and by doing so the loan officer is paid more…so they want same compensation to loan officer regardless of interest rate or loan type…but they do not prohibit a no point at 5.25% and a no point no closing at 5.5%...they just want o make sure that the YSP or SRP is being given back to the consumer as a credit towards closing costs and not simply being pocketed by a greedy loan officer taking advantage of an unsuspecting borrower…they are also worried that allowing for pay based on loan size will be detrimental to lower loan amounts…so we have to be very careful not to keep telling them that this will hurt lower loan amounts or they may ban compensation based on loan amounts as well.

Clulessdad: (October 15, 2009 11:07am)

Real appraiser- Thank you. I see this blog as something that could be insightful and provide a collective mechanism to provide an alternative to the HVCC issue. I don't feel it is enough just to say abolish the HVCC. The HVCC petition is all wonderful, but if we get rid of HVCC, what do we feel is an alternative to facilitate the independent appraisal issue AND keep everyone's business and legal issues intact? I can't see how going to NY and beating on a desk saying that we have 100,000 signatures to abolish the HVCC will work. It is a nice publicity stunt and I agree maybe it should happen, but unless we have a viable alternative we have nothing. And until we all get out of the petty name calling and whining, we won't figure out an alternative to reversing HVCC. None of us are doing well, otherwise we wouldn't be spending our time on this blog. So let's find an alternative to HVCC to give to Brian and Frank to take with them.

EdC: (October 15, 2009 11:06am)

Sorry real appraiser - I don't know of 1 person that lost their license for doing a comp check. Do you? Allison : Sounds like what she's doing is illegal. What else could you expect from an amc shill. I hope she gets called on it and all her efforts are inadmissible. Let her call me. If I give a comp check value there's an airtight appraisal behind it. I don't know what she thinks she's proving except that USPAP might need a change.

Starving Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 11:06am)

Clueless-I'm with you and agree 100% w/Real apprsr comments @ you... your post are always informative and provide a different view point. You are to be commended for holding your writings to such a high standard as not to insult or call names. I wasn't trying to make it a competition, and you emphasized my point...apprsrs do have info at their disposal that may not be available to others. Good busn practices include a level of loyalty you refer to and I'm on that page with you. Also agree with real aprsr that some posters are being allowed to go TOO FAR when promoting violence and suicide.

wowsers out: (October 15, 2009 11:05am)

If people want to do something unethical thats their choice. This country is built on unethical. It's sad. That's why the middle class carries the tax base cause we are paying for everything. If everyone paid their taxes the way they are suppose to this country would be rich. This isn't much different. Unethical appraisers doing what they can to earn a dollar. Unethical Lo's pushing the unethical appraisers to tell them their deal is gonna work. It's not about the borrower. Stop lieing. If it was about the borrower your wouldn't be charging thousands of dollars for fees. It's about the green. Thats what matters. If an appraisal doesn't come in you loose money. That's the drive, that's the real playing card. Has nothing to do with a desire to help humanity. To help that guy buy a house he can't afford. Anyone hear of the Georgia Couple who bought a $600k home and they both had $8 an hour jobs. Never made a payment on the house? Who's to blame there?

EdC - 20 yrs appraising: (October 15, 2009 11:04am)

Sorry real appraiser - I don't know of 1 person that lost their license for doing a comp check. Do you? Allison : Sounds like what she's doing is illegal. What else could you expect from an amc shill. I hope she gets called on it and all her efforts are inadmissible. Let her call me. If I give a comp check value there's an airtight appraisal behind it.

JOHN THE BODY: (October 15, 2009 11:03am)

comments should be restricted to 100 words or less to prevent people from writing a book! Make your point and move on without writing a 1000 word essay!

EdC - 20 yrs appraising: (October 15, 2009 11:03am)

Sorry real appraiser - I don't know of 1 person that lost their license for doing a comp check. Do you? Allison : Sounds like what she's doing is illegal. What else could you expect from an amc shill. I hope she gets called on it and all her efforts are inadmissible. Let her call me. If I give a comp check there's an airtight appraisal behind it.

Appraisal 101: (October 15, 2009 11:03am)

A little disappointed, Guys. I think you're sharp & appreciate your show & opinions, but you're dead wrong on this "appraiser shopping" issue. We've all heard that "you don't want to spend your customer's money if the "deal" can't be done." However, the simple fact is that as appraisers, our "opinions of value" must be documented. Collecting "values" from appraisers before "doing your deal" and before the appraiser knows anything about the property (or has seen it) is just backwards. Remember, we're not a "part of your deal," which is why we are independent. Your approach provides motivation for predetermined values. Big NO-NO. We're actually supposed to be more of a safety stop. This may not sound good for business, but I've survived more than 20 years trying to do things the right way. If you want a free, undocumented opinion of value, call a RE broker/agent. As appraisers, certain steps need to be taken before we deliver opinions. If a few thousand dollars is truly a deal-breaker, it's time to roll the dice. As RE professionals, you know I'm right. As businessmen in a commission-driven part of the industry, I also see why you would resist this reality. Alright, off my soap box. By the way, HVCC SUCKS (for more reasons that deflated values)!

I oh WA: (October 15, 2009 11:02am)

From my experience, any loan that doesnt close due to value is considered "garbage" by the LO. I just paid my mechanic $75 bucks last week for telling me something was wrong with my car, I already knew that but he told me in more specifics. LO's should start paying us to tell them something may be wrong with their loan, this would save them a lot of time and hassle. My advice to LO's is do the paperwork and see if you have a deal b4 you order. If you're doing business locally you should already have a realistic value "in mind" and not have to ask someone else. In all my years, the best, highest producing LO's do two consistent things - 1.send me the order with a paid in full. 2. accept the value and make the deal happen or not. I NEVER hear back from these LO's on the same order, always get paid, and consistently read their names in award and accolade columns. "it is what it is", now use your LO skills and make something happen within the guidlines and with proper ethics. Some LO's on this board could learn a thing or two from the consistent top producers I have had the pleasure in dealing with.

me: (October 15, 2009 10:59am)

real appraiser - The majority of the people on this blog (with the exception of the appraiser) are not bound by the requirements of USPAP, don't know anything about what it requires in an appraiser, and therfore don't give a rat's a** about it, and feel that appraisers are "whiney" because they face criminal charges if they violate it.... Most people here only care about their bottom line without an ounce of concern for others, INCLUDING their own clients... and it shows.

AZguy: (October 15, 2009 10:58am)

40k, and Appraiser, you and a few others seem to know what you are talking about. I am an originator but having a family member that appraised for over 20 years, (of which I assisted him for several years), I feel I can see both sides clearly. I new how to find "good" appraisers and stuck with him/her. Lets make sure we are comparing apples to apples here. When you "shop" appraisers for value and pick the highes one to go with its not comparable to a loan originator getting shopped for rate! or "if" they can do the loan at all. Come on guys, if you are really experienced in the mortgage business you dont come up with lame excuses for why you need to shop the appraisers to get the value you need. The value that was derived in the first place by someone, anyone that put a price on the contract.... who is not a professional and has no real clue of what the property is really worth anyway. I will repeat what I said last week, contract price does NOT make value. You need a good experienced appraiser to determine that. And I will also add that the same appraiser will come to a different value himself if he does the same appraisal 3 different times in a few weeks time. If the appraisals vary by a huge amount then one of them doesnt know what they are doing or are missing something important. I think the problem here is that the majority of appraisers are not really that good. Many are but lenders tend to judge them mostly by meeting the 'desired" value or not. A value that is set by either a Realtor, and we all know that they all know what they are doing... or the buyer! who we all know is always right since they are willing to pay what they offered on the contract. Just think about what you are saying here, the contract price should always be met since that is what the buyer is willing to pay for the property. However its the lender that needs to know what the "Market Value" of a home is because they dont give a rats butt what someone is willing to pay, they only care what the property is REALLY worth in the event they have to foreclose on it.... hence the real reason for requiring an appraisal in the first place, did we forget WHY an appraisal is required by the lender/investor? There are several values connected to the property. The only one the lender is concerned with is the market value as defined by Fannie/Freddie and the appraisal board for the sole purpose of establishing a market value for lending money on the property.Simply a risk based evaluation. When I was able to use my own appraisers I had confidence that they would do the job right or I would not use them to begin with. I didn't need to shop them if valud didn't meet price, even knowing that I could shop around and eventually find another appraiser that would be willing to bend whatever and meet the contract price. There is more to this business than that, although you cant tell by recnt history. Adding to this fiasco lets dont forget the lack of knowledge of the underwriter who doesnt catch things like a golf course premium set at 60K which can sound good but actually should have been calculated at 100k. I have seen appraisals with a 40k difference based just on that. If an originator does not have a good processor and a good appraiser then they arent doing their job as well as they could be. HVCC just cut us at the knees by taking away our ability to work with great appraisers but that still does not change the basic rules of appraising. They just made it impossible for us to allow the good ones to rise to the top.

real appraiser: (October 15, 2009 10:57am)

20YR LO: even Edc who does comp searches will tell you its illegal, I am not bashing EdC, just pointing out a fact. And yes many appraisers have lost their licenses for comp searching, just cause your in the biz for 20 years and have never heard of it, google "USPAP 2009" its there for everyone to see and read it yourself, its long so I suggest the appendix will help. You might be suprised of all the laws we have to follow or as some would say, hide behind.

EdC - 20 yrs appraising: (October 15, 2009 10:57am)

Ohh and btw, if I tell a MB a range of value or "it could make that value" I'm experienced enough that an appraisal has already been done in my mind and will be backed up with an air-tight valuation. Should it be against the law for inexperienced appraisers to do comp checks - yes. That's what that part of USPAP is referring to imo. I'd prefer it if you didn't do comp checks, stay within your comfortable boundaries.

Allison, 30 year appraiser: (October 15, 2009 10:55am)

I posted this yesterday and got no comments. The lady appraiser who supported the HVCC and testified in favor of it presented 77 'value check requests" sent to 77 different appraisers on the same property and from the same MB. She is still collecting 'value check requests' and working with mortgagefraud.com. So beware all you MB's LO's and appraisers who are doing value checks, you are being watched.

wowsers: (October 15, 2009 10:54am)

If I send in that report and I am within a couple thousand of whats needed I would take that into consideration. ERC requires 2 appraisers to be within 5% so If I am within 5% of the estimated value I look real hard, and start making phone calls to see if it is justifiable. The HVCC has taken that ability to service our customers away. But thats the only way we can service our customer. Timely turn times, quality work, and the ability to review our own work and see if that value is there. There are buyers and seller in this world, and they do have local professionals assisting in their decesions. I take that into consideration also. But sometimes it just not there and you can't hold us responsible. There may be unknown undue stimulas. Like the fact that a house was trying to sell at list price within 2 days of listing cause the people next door were buying for their daughter. They didn't care how much they had to pay they wanted that house. Is it fair to the lender to loan and insure just because they wanted their daughter next door. And don't expect me to buy into the well it's selling for it's list price where the realtors factor in a 94-98% sp/lp ratio and expect it to sell for less than lp but since there are $6k in concessions it's okay. And to the realtors who change the list price the same day you enter contract pending. MLS does record all changes. Why would you increase the list price the same day it went under contract. I discuss all price changes in the appraisal so your not fooling the underwriter. Well got more work todo. Hate that I wasted any time on here today as the Video is a joke. Never been here before and won't come back. These two guys are clowns.

FLMtgBkrBiz: (October 15, 2009 10:53am)

Thanks, guys, for stirring the pot. Thanks, also, for clarifying your opinion. As you point out, not all will agree with your take on it, just like not all appraisers will render the exact same result (even without any outside influence). It's too bad some folks have to villanize those with whom they disagree. Thanks, for being willing to do what you do. I look forward to your videos.

LENDER WHO KNOWS BETTER: (October 15, 2009 10:53am)

REAL APPRAISER: I have never asked any appraiser to break the rules and neither have a majority of my lender friends. We are friends with our appraisers and would not want to see them lose their livelihood. In 1996 one appraiser stood up to a full field appraisal review and won. The bank did not want to honor a well time lock and tried to hammer the appraisal to get out of the lock. You don't think that was an eye opener for us LO's? Do you think we would want to give any ammunition to a bank to lose preferred broker status? Why would I want my appraiser black listed? Chase, Bank of America, Wells Fargo all had Black Listed Appraisers (do not use)and preferred appraisers way before this mess all started. I did have a real estate agent...that wasted my time and my appraiser's time by not complying with FHA/underwriter requirements. One of the last requirements was to remove trash. I had a redundant argument with him go for 40 minutes until I lost my cell signal that I would not jeopardize my appraisers' FHA. The real estate agent lost his license a few months later on another transaction. Good riddance.

Lender: (October 15, 2009 10:52am)

If the appraisers made their money by closing loans (If the shoe was on the other foot), every single one of you would get a 2nd opinion. It's not value shopping, it's double checking. Frank is right, you just only see your own perspective on this. He didn't say he was calling to see who would bring in the value that he needed, he said he would double check the accuracy of the first value. What's the problem here? You would do the same thing if you made your living off losing loans, if you say you wouldn't you are a liar and you wouldn't last long in the lending side. Try to see both sides and you won't have such animosity. Starving Appraiser still sucks at his job....

20YR LO: (October 15, 2009 10:49am)

Can someone please tell of 1 appraiser that has gone to jail or lost his license for providing a comp check. Lets stop this nonsense of it being illegal. It is more an issue of ethical or illegal, is it illegal or unethical in providing a consumer with the most comprehensive data available in deciding to spend money for a benefit that hinges on the outcome of a service provided. One more thing, I have loyally worked with a handfull of dedicated professional appraisers (not yes men), and not one of these professional's with some over 30 years expierence has mentioned that it is against USPAP. I sincerely doubt that before HVCC that one of you appraisers mentioned this to any of us scumbag lenders prior to HVCC and were reagullary supplying this info to your loyal scumbag LO's.

EdC - 20 yrs appraising: (October 15, 2009 10:48am)

I might violate USPAP in doing comp searches for free, but I know for a fact that like the statement "patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels", that those who hide behind USPAP do so as it's their last refuge. I'd rather work with someone open and honest than to trust someone that denies common business sense by hiding behind a document. AMC employee/shill perhaps?

Starving Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 10:48am)

It's disturbing to see such violence, even suicide encouraged and promoted by this crowd. Like the name calling and insults aren't bad enough. BTW, F & B, when and where does it cross the line???

real appraiser: (October 15, 2009 10:47am)

Clulessdad: You have always been straight, I do not think you would find an appraiser here that would not want you or others like you as a client. If you do not know, you ask and modify your behavior so that everyone benefits. The problem is the others here(majority it seems) feel otherwise and FRANK gave the gas that fueled the fire. Frank is not backing down, If he just would read every post here, He would have to agree with you or continue to push his nonsense, hiding behind that he does not know USPAP. All of us know that is crap. Wish you were running the show. At least this would be professional and we could work together. FRANK has yet tried to stop the crazies. Did you see the post about PUNCHING or slapping socal girl, That is franks fault for letting this go where it did, sorry, its the truth, but I always read your posts, they give me info and insight that I can use as an appraiser, Thanks

FED up: (October 15, 2009 10:45am)

Wowsers...No one is asking (or should not be asking) for you or any other appraiser to inflate the values, but to ask you what you think that the property should be valued at should be fine. The problem comes in when someone tells you what they need as a value to close the loan. The laws are unjust to the borrower... If the borrower comes to me for a loan, I don't tell them that they need to pay me $350 up front to see if they qualify and nor should they need to pay for the full appraisal up front only to be told that their value doesn't qualify. After all we are the pros right? How many times have you had a homeowner tell you that they think that their house is worth a lot more. When you go to a doctor for stomach pain does your doctor run a few routine tests OR does he just cut you open only to tell you that you ate some bad fish the night before, but OH YEAH you owe me $50,000 for the surgery.

Common Sense: (October 15, 2009 10:45am)

Clulessdad! Thanks for spelling out all we do and sometimes without getting one red cent. Why can't an appraiser let us know what comps are for free when we do much more just to get a loan closed. And there is no guarantee these days. So I have worked for nothing on many occasions but even had to pay the appraiser, when the loan didn't work out. No one seems to care about that. Give us some slack and let's work together because we both need each other. Without appraisals needed for purchases or refinancing, appraisers wouldn't even have a job. Let's just work it out and get along!

wowsers: (October 15, 2009 10:39am)

My appraisal software, mls fees, insurance, yearly computer fees are around $5k just to do my job in the office. Not including outside office expenses. I know the loan application software must be expensive? Copy of loan app/pen/paper. It's so expensive I know. We don't work for free and no an appraiser can't afford to either. I know alot of businesses have that ability to predetermine things. Mechianics charge $85 diag, Dentists charge $100 for an office visit and xrays just to see whats wrong. USPAP says we can't. You order an appraisal. When you get it we are do our money. Nothing else matters. And the fact is if an appraiser isn't paid for an appraisal whether or not the property closes the NCCOB requires the appraiser to be paid within 60 days of receipt of the appraisal. It doesn't take much to file a complaint on their website either. Just wish more appraisers did that then this wouldn't be a problem either.

Clulessdad: (October 15, 2009 10:38am)

Starving- I view the appraisers as business partners, not as someone I need to compete. I have websites that can give me some of the sales, but they are nearly not as extensive as the databases you have at your disposal. I don't charge people to run their credit reports and all the time I spend on qualifying them. This is a pure business need, nothing more. If you want $20 for your effort, so be it. But if I don't pay you for this time, I will ALWAYS give you the deal. The converse is also true. This is business and these are business decisions that all of us go thru. If you service my business needs, in a legal and ethical manner, you will get my business forever. That is the value added service good appraisers are worth and HVCC has taken away.

SCRREA: (October 15, 2009 10:37am)

To the guys in the video....you know the Loan people. As an appraiser trying to always accomadate LO's I do comp checks for those giving me business. Here is whats funny. When someone unknown to me ask for comp checks, I say great send me the order and if there is a problem I will call you. They never send the order. Do you think they are dialing for dollars ? Don't know. Just reporting the facts. Everyone wants to make the deal...so why blame one step in the process?

ALApprazer: (October 15, 2009 10:37am)

Common Sense. Common sense says you get what you pay for. HVCC is proving that with the quality of work coming out of the AMC's by half paid appraiser's. If you choose to work for free, I support your right to do so.

real appraiser: (October 15, 2009 10:34am)

Common Sense, have you read any posts here by your brethren, "maybe we should start thinking about others and not just ourselves" What do you think every appraiser here is asking for and you guys keep bashing us. You do have strong support from those appraisers who are willing to violate USPAP. Just remeber these guys willing to break the law are the first ones to say you pressured them, remember they have weak morals and can justify anything their way. It is much easier to make a living breaking the rules, all LO's know this, thats why you do not do it, but why ask us to?

LENDER WHO KNOWS BETTER: (October 15, 2009 10:34am)

What do you think about the $60 Million spent on 4,400 counselor's to review your file? I think you should add another option to the poll: A way to restore funding to ACORN

joecolorado: (October 15, 2009 10:33am)

you know, from some of the comments from appraisers...it appears that WE as appraisers dont know our OWN rules and regulations so how can we tell others what is right and what is wrong? WE as a group, don't abide by our own regulations, why should others who are not appraisers abide by them or have to suffer because of them. There are ramifications to every decision, whether you get paid or not, why not make decisions where you get paid rather than ones with which you do not? dont give out free appraisals..... and pointing fingers only gets you a sore finger.....appraisers, start by pointing your finger at yourself, I am an appraiser and I blame myself for helping to permit this matter getting too out of hand, HVCC is not going away.....there is too much money being made by the powers that be and the AMC's who are currently wielding the appraisal power. adapt to it. BUT we need to get together as a unit to get appraising and appraisal rules back in the hands of the appraisers. How are we going to do that when we cannot even discuss and explain our own rules without descending to name calling and insults? As for Frank and Brian....keep up the good work, this is a good site with lots of information, but like everything else, there are always critics to contend with.

5150 cause you are all about nuts!!: (October 15, 2009 10:31am)

@puncher.. Do me a favor and pay the SO-CAL-5150-Appraiser-GAL a visit. Be sure to use an open hand since she is a girl. Show us how strong yer pimp hand is!!

EdC: (October 15, 2009 10:30am)

ILappraiser: No one, and I mean no one, made the banks fund those bad liar loans and 125% ltv no doc loans. The banks did it all. All of it. If they had done their due diligence none of this would have happened and those loans wouldn't have gone through. Someone comes up to you and say buy this ratty car for $10k. You do, hand them $10k on the spot with no questions asked. That's what the banks were doing. You can't blame appraisers, consumers or brokers for this mess, it's totally due to negligence, due to greed, by the banks. Surely you see that. I hope.

LENDER WHO KNOWS BETTER: (October 15, 2009 10:30am)

The negative appraisers posting here must be HVCC stoolies... I think most of us are upset that HVCC is a middleman collecting more money and paying the appraisers substantially less than what they deserve.

Common Sense: (October 15, 2009 10:27am)

To AlAppraiser, I work all the time for free. That is the nature of this business and how we are paid, but the rewards outway that. The appraiser is always compensated even from the loan officer which if they paid for the appraisal were not compensated for their work. Bad appraisal and we are still not compensated. That would be negative income. Why is an appraiser's time more valuable than the loan officer's time? To get work, we have to go for it and in turn, the reward will be greater than expecting a paycheck for every little thing, like comps! Remember, we don't get paid until the loan closes! Maybe, we should start thinking of others and not just ourselves and we would live in a better place!

Syracuseappraiserguy: (October 15, 2009 10:25am)

seems to me-no loans are being made w/o an appraisal..not sure what the rules are for brokers, but why not start with the appraisal 1st to see if you have a loan or not?? UNFORTUNATELY you will have to tell the "client" there are hard fees to be paid to get a loan (the appraisal). Get 3 different appraisals (not comp checks) Send in all 3 appraisals to underwriting and let them tell you what they will loan on based on the 3 appraisals. If we as appraisers did not have to follow all the ridicoulous rules that have been set in place for us(like I'm sure brokers have)which take time and add nothing to the bottom line (estimating the market value) we could afford to lower our fees so it would be feasbile to have 3 appraisals completed and do what is everyones best interest. Yes most appraisers have a pretty good idea of a "value range" for a neighborhood, that is what we get paid for, but it is not an exact science.

wowsers: (October 15, 2009 10:25am)

It's pretty Bad. I have read many of the comments and it's astonishing. If you have never taken a USPAP course you can't comment on what an Appraiser can or Can't do. USPAP clearly states and it has been stated throughout this thing that any indication of value is an appraisal. If I were to say your value estimate is high that is an appraisal as defined by USPAP. If I were to say your value estimate is low that is an appraisal as defined by USPAP. If I were to say the value is between this and that guess what that's an appraisal also. » Now regarding comp checks. If I were to provide a LO with a list of sales from a subdivision with no search criteria other than the subdivision that would be acceptable. If I provide a LO with a list of sales that are say within 5 years of the subjects age and 20% of the subjects size. According to USPAP I have provided the LO a range of value. Because I have used my knowledge to compare the properties. USPAP is a B***h and so is the HVCC but we have to follow both. Don't get mad at ethical appraisers cause we don't want to be fined or go to jail. To ask an appraiser what a property is worth before he does the job is not ethical. If you want to shop an appraiser do so by his turn time and quality but not the outcome of the appraisal. Again as stated previously an appraiser can not do an appraisal if there is a predermined value. So If an unethical appraiser says the house should come in at or around this he just agreed to a predermined value.

Starving Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 10:23am)

Did anyone else notice the contradictions between yesterday and today's videos re:"shopping" a number vs an appraiser? Only using known trusted apprsr vs using a # hitter down the aisle? See my earlier post...maybe I'm not hearing it correctly... probs viewing since the upgrade.

HVCC Hater: (October 15, 2009 10:21am)

Back in the olden days we had a relationship with our appraisers and this caused the appraisals to be more accurate. We would ask for a ball park value or even the value we needed to make the deal work. If the appraiser could not get the value we needed he simple said "No!" and we would all move on to the next deal. Also, consider that in doing things the lender would always review the appraisal and could and often would cut the value! Remember also lenders had "black lists" that is to say if they felt as if appraisers that were monkeying around too much they would be banned from that lender! HVCC is ruining our lives and you know it!

jcline: (October 15, 2009 10:20am)

Hey Appraisal Gal: - we do. Maybe that's why we're somtimes appalled at the "work" you do.

ILappraiser: (October 15, 2009 10:19am)

OK, a few thousand bucks will either make or not make a deal? Isn't that basically asking an appraiser to hit a number? How the hell can an appraiser determine that a given property is worth 2 or 3K more than the previous guy unless he does a relatively thorough analysis of the property. As someone said before, if you have a good working relationship with an appraiser who you trust, they will probably give you the benefit of the doubt. I've done it, and most apppraisers I know have done it, even though we've not been happy about it. But, when your appraiser tells you he can't hit that number and you go out to shop the appraisal, well you're looking to hit a number, which is why HVCC was put into effect in the first place. Frank and Brian, love your show but you seem to want to absolve the mortgage broker industry of any responsibility in the meltdown and now want the same procedures back in place. You can't have your cake and eat it too - and placing all blame on borrowers, appraisers, regulators is just loke being a Pharisee. Not all houses appraise out and not all deals will close. I hate HVCC but some of the claims you guys make point out the exact need for having HVCC.

FED up: (October 15, 2009 10:17am)

I understand and like what your saying in a perfect "honest" world, but we all know that we don't live there. What you wind up with is appraisers wanting to "not lose the business" and fluffing the numbers "just enough to get the deal" and it snowballs into the false market that we are all realing from. It's the same problem that is in the mortgage industry, to a point, with brokers telling clients that they can give them a ficticious low rate just to get the business because they are being shopped. Now don't get me wrong the 4th party HVCC is not the way to go, because you wind up with too many hands in the cookie jar and you're left with the client paying in the end. We need to create a scientific approach to appraising and cut down on the opinions, afterall set numbers don't lie. In the end, there should be a set scientific approach with a 2% curve attached, which is more than fair in a "normal market", which we could attain again if we could move this inventory. I know I'm thinking out of the box, but we need to if we want to stop the influx of government control in our industry.

Starving Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 10:17am)

Clueless-you can do your own comp checks by getting a realtor or appraiser's license, paying for and joining the local Realtors assoc to allow access to MLS and finding/learning how to navigate public record sites. You'll find the recent sales there, but still won't know how comparable they really are. This is a small part of what an apprsr does rather it's for comp checks or a full blown report.

real appraiser: (October 15, 2009 10:17am)

SO-CAL-5150-Appraiser-GAL: be careful girl, no one here wants good advice and educated answers, dont confuse them with fact. by the way, I could not agree with you more, good post

SO-CAL-5150-Appraiser-GAL: (October 15, 2009 10:14am)

Heres a thought?? why dont all of you mortgage L/O's or brokers pay for your OWN data source and get your OWN range of value, that way you'll know what your up against BEFORE you order an appraisal....

Puncher's friend: (October 15, 2009 10:12am)

Hey Puncher, we should set up a fund to get a NY knuckledragger to pay Mr. Cuomo a visit. Maybe after that this HVCC thing will go away :)

LOcifer: (October 15, 2009 10:11am)

capitalism, deal with it....or move to china.

Clulessdad: (October 15, 2009 10:11am)

Old timer- that is exactly what I am looking to get. The facts and no opinions. And maybe a short conversation about what particulars they would look at to properly evaluate the value. Geez-life would be so easy if a LO had access to the same facts as an appraiser! I could actually give the client the facts and between us we could come up with the differences in amenties and give our own opinions to go further! WOW what a concept! And we haven't broken any laws. Could this be the answer to HVCC?

LENDER WHO KNOWS BETTER: (October 15, 2009 10:11am)

Appraiser did not have to fudge on a couple of thousand. If you knew anything about lending you would not have made that statement.

Real Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 10:11am)

It is pretty much back to bashing appraiser and acting like children, nothing meaningful going on again. This site has gone to crap and its not he appraisers who are actually offering info but a number of uneducated LO's that cant stop talking crap, I'm out, what a waste of time. Oh and frank, dont use your arguement on NOV 1, it is like sending a drunk driver to a DWI checkpoint to make the arguement about drunk drivers being bad, You will prove that HVCC needs to be extended and I want it gone. The sad part is, you don't even know how bad your position is!

Sweet: (October 15, 2009 10:08am)

The Puncher: if you are in New York hit up Cuomo's office. Now he's after the BofA former CEO.

EdC - 20 yrs appraising: (October 15, 2009 10:07am)

Sorry old-timer. If you set ANY parameters for your comp search you are "filtering" data and therefore performing an appraisal. I personally see nothing wrong with it.

The Puncher: (October 15, 2009 10:05am)

I am out and about today and looking for some HVCC offcials to punch? can anyone tell me where i can find one?

Lender Who Knows Better: (October 15, 2009 10:04am)

I only have a problem with crooked appraisers, and HVCC STOLIES, except for one honest appraiser who would take forever to complete his assignments.

Sweet: (October 15, 2009 10:03am)

It is not against USPAP to provide a comp search, value range, etc. I am happy to help my clients in that respect - why waste everyone's time and money. We typically see non-payment for non-productive reports. That's the way it is, right or wrong.

Sweet: (October 15, 2009 10:00am)

To all appraisers out there, feel free to join us on Twitter, and join the "twibe" #appraiser - we can sing to the choir.

appraiser: (October 15, 2009 10:00am)

Your logic is incorrect on appraisal shopping. I don't think you are talking a couple of thousand difference on an appraisal - thus your reason for shopping. If you had a relationship with an honest appraiser - he would know his "value" is an opinion and give you that couple thousand. What you are really asking is who will make your deal, period. Appraiser's opinions should only vary by 5-10% as they are using the SAME data.

Texasappraiser: (October 15, 2009 9:59am)

Clulessdad, Legally, We can do the search of sales in the neighborhood this is public record or mls, send you (all)sales, we should not infer which are best, but you can always discuss data(grey area). If you do not see a sale anywhere near you range, typically its dead. Then tell homeowner that they need to take the risk, not you or the appraiser, they know their home and market(sometimes even without emotional connection). No appraiser wants to take the money and run, its bad business. Appraiser can always tell you the red flags. or at least say "red flag". once you develope the relationship with your appraiser, trust takes over and you understand one another. Ithink that is pretty clear (or vague) any other ideas from other appraisers?

Lender Who Knows Better: (October 15, 2009 9:59am)

Loving HVCC you are a moron. There are home buyers willing to pay more than the appraised value!!! We lend on the APPRAISED VALUE, the buyer has to come up with the difference. I live in a desirable neighborhhod...good schools, next a golf course, etc. There is only one home for sale and there were 50 separate bids. The Real Estate Agent has a fiduciary responsibility to the seller to sell for the highest possible price. The buyer has to increase their cash investment into the property. Lenders have provided financing based on the LOWER of APPRAISED VALUE or Sales Price.

centralORappraiser: (October 15, 2009 9:59am)

Comp check or "comp check" --I feel that ther is a valuabl srvice in doing comp checks. As long as it dos not invole giving range or value estimate. I see this as good cutomer service. For example ifa client askes if I can get $$ for a property, I say if you want to know $$ then ordr an appraisal. If you want an idea of what has sold in the past 6 months in a particular subdivivision, I can chek MLS and provide you with the FACTS of the results and you can make whatever assumption you wish with that data. Most clients are appreciative of this input and I feel it is fair and without violating USPAP

Old Timer: (October 15, 2009 9:57am)

sorry EdC - let me clarify my comments... If I am asked for a "market range", or "comp check", I will usually send my clients a printout of sales from a market, based upon reasonable similarities, and let them make a determination for their consumers. This service I offer for free to maintain client relations. I have an advantage of access to databases that my clients don't (MLS, PubRecords, data services, etc) and will assist them for the sake of good relations. AT NO TIME do I offer a "value", or even a "range", that is up to them. As such, I am not supplying an appraisal, just access to my data..... If they require more, then they pay for my due diligence and expertise... Of course, this is ONLY for my established clients, not something I offer for anyone that calls me out of the blue for a "comp"........ A word for you all, if you want quality and integrity, and what's "best" for your consumer, shopping for the highest value is not the way to go and will make you look like a dirtbag...shopping for the "best" appraiser and honesty will get you more referrals, guaranteed.

Bob the builder: (October 15, 2009 9:56am)

EdC - 20 yrs appraising: I agree, apprasiers are being phased out, soon all values will be auto calculated.

TWalhof: (October 15, 2009 9:54am)

I have called an appraiser to check value in an area to make sure we should even start refi deal and not spend $400, a client's money. If it's not to work because I have run into a few clients that thought their house was worth well more than what it really was.

Starving Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 9:52am)

Freshman - maybe that 35lbs is a product of "baby daddy". >>>Storman - see my post from yesterday. I'm on that page, some (SOME) agents need to get real with their expectations/listing prices. Also liked the comparison of the agent stealing your listing because they are comping it to superior property. >>>NOW<<< let's refrain from name calling, it's counter productive and just not necessary. It's not so much WHAT you say as HOW you say it. EVREY POINT can be made without negativity and is much more credible, and reflects more professionalism than nasty remarks and name calling...school yard antics. Next thing you know we'll be setting each other on fire like the kids in FL.

Loan Guy in San Diego: (October 15, 2009 9:52am)

Hey - I have an idea... Why don't you appraisers create your own blog! This blog has turned into an appraiser's bitch session and that sucks. This is supposed to be a mortgage blog and the majority of the comments are from whining appraisers. JUST GO AWAY! I know business is down; I know we all are working harder than we used to; I know it will get better; I know the time spent complaining could be better spent doing dollar producing activities. Appraisers - Want to make some easy(ier) money?? Why not call all of your previous (purchase) clients from 2003 to 2006 and offer a discounted appraisal so they can lower their property taxes? Maybe there's some money there, huh??

EdC - 20 yrs appraising: (October 15, 2009 9:51am)

Possible scenarios of why HVCC is bringing down values. Use of inexperienced out of area appraisers (the only ones that will work for them at the fees they pay are the bottom of the barrel appraisers). Insistance/forcing on appraisers the use of AVM derived sales in their reports with tainted AVM data (AVM's usefulness depends on the skill of the person that inputs the parameters). Forcing the use of REO's and off-market sales in appraisers reports to lower values (to what end you may ask-read the last few sentences). Re-fi's not making value-probably due to preferring a lack of risk by the AMC's for removing PMI, and reasons outlined in this message. AMC's feel the need to justify their existance so they lower values to make it appear to outsiders (Congress etc) that they are fighting fraud. It's the only way they can prove they are effective, by lowering values. If they raised values would they appear to be fighting fraud? No. If they did nothing would they appear to be fighting fraud? No. They MUST lower values to prove their worth in the process. This is strategically done for the benefit of any onlookers to make it appear they are fighting fraud. This is to hide the fact that they don't know what they're doing and they're not experienced enough to understand appraisal techniques or manage appraisers so they try to dummy it down to make it understandable to themselves and their high school colleagues. You've got the inept trying to manage professionals and they think that by hiring the dumbest of the crew at the lowest fees they can dummy them down to where their techniques fit in nicely with what little they do know. It also appears that the insistance of the use of AVM comparables is to increase confidence in AVM's and lower confidence in appraisers. The ultimate goal is to get rid of appraisers so they're pushing the envelope everywhere they can to try to get their way. Appraisers are in the way of their profits. I'm sure there's more reasons, but this is what I could come up with.

Bob the builder: (October 15, 2009 9:51am)

Sellingparadise: Cash deals always work, there cash? And yes the market will get better once seller concessions are a thing of the past. Neighborhoods with concessions offered in the majority of the sales will never increase in value and will continue to decline. Once buyers start putting down a down payment and paying their own closing cost will those market areas see improvement.

Clulessdad: (October 15, 2009 9:50am)

Old timer-I want to reiterate, I haven't asked anyone to commit fraud or be unethical or violate USPAP. I don't know all the appraiser regs, I have enough myself to figure out. Mine is a pure business requirement. What information can I get to help me decide if a deal is viable? I know that the final "opinion" is dependant on a personal visit to the subject and comparables. I have seen a lot of appraisals and know some basic techniques, but I am not an expert in valuation theory and I also know that every property is different. But I do need a clue as to what is going on the marketplace to do my business. So how can you help me figure this out without fraud, being unethical, or violate USPAP? If the answer is "nothing," then I will shop around for someone that can help me. Because that is my business and without it I can't do my job.

Lender Who Know Better: (October 15, 2009 9:44am)

100,000 Brokers pushing for higher values? WRONG. MOST brokers did not have the time to waste shopping appraised values. It was easy to structure loans DESPITE the appraised value. Most profit was derived by pushing loans QUICKLY through the system. This means my appraiser had to and HAS to be ethical. Appraisal Reviews could cost me my time, a missed closing date, a rate lock...which all COSTS MONEY. WHY? Because I would only charge rate extensions to my client, IF my client was the cause of the delay.

Loanmonarch: (October 15, 2009 9:43am)

Okay, I have to chime in on this appraisal issue. I just have to move a file from one lender to another, each lender ordered their BTW, I did not NEED the higher value to close the deal. I have forwarded the second appraisal to my client and urged him to contact every legislator in his distrit. This totally supports what you guys are saying: HVCC is artifically reducing our real estate equity.

EdC - 20 yrs appraising: (October 15, 2009 9:43am)

Old timer - even giving a range of value is an appraisal. So is sending comps within parameters to a broker. It's impossible to give a range or even a yes or a no to a number without it being an appraisal. Catch 22. It's an isolating tenet and unproductive to establishing a long term client base. It needs to go or be altered to more practical terms - real world terms.

Sellingparadise: (October 15, 2009 9:41am)

In florida we are frustrated with appraisers using foreclosures and short sales to comp an arms length transaction. recently an appraiser told me there is a way to add value to a property when using short sales and forclosures, but most appraiswrs are either too lazy, scared or busy to do that. we all know there is added value on a home that has been lived in and maintained upgraded, etc by the owner. Also, buyers will pay a premium for a homes that do not have to "wait" for. My cash deal have all sold higher than ones with mortgages. is this the way we raise the value on real estate??????

Sellingparadise: (October 15, 2009 9:41am)

In florida we are frustrated with appraisers using foreclosures and short sales to comp an arms length transaction. recently an appraiser told me there is a way to add value to a property when using short sales and forclosures, but most appraiswrs are either too lazy, scared or busy to do that. we all know there is added value on a home that has been lived in and maintained upgraded, etc by the owner. Also, buyers will pay a premium for a homes that do not have to "wait" for. My cash deal have all sold higher than ones with mortgages. is this the way we raise the value on real estate??????

Not hating the HVCC: (October 15, 2009 9:40am)

When the HVCC went into effect I lost most of my clients, signed up with many of AMC's and now I get probably 2 a week, I have done work for several different ones but mainly work for just one. I don't get that much work from the others because my fees are to high, the one that I do work continuously for pays me from $275 to $320 for a typical appraisal, I have had to turn down complex appraisal with them because the fee they offer is inadequate for the assignment. I have to say I don't mind doing the work, I get several days to do the assignment and I am never questioned on my value, I also appraise for a bank that follow lending rules and have a third party order the appraisal and again, I am never asked to do a comp check. I know there are many appraisers out there who are not doing much work or as much as they were use to and I can only suggest to send out your resume to companies that have their own appraiser rotation and keep at it. Its lenders like the ones who host this site that have brought us in this direction who just don't get it. It seems they dont care who gets hurt as long as they get deal done.

Sellingparadise: (October 15, 2009 9:40am)

In florida we are frustrated with appraisers using foreclosures and short sales to comp an arms length transaction. recently an appraiser told me there is a way to add value to a property when using short sales and forclosures, but most appraiswrs are either too lazy, scared or busy to do that. we all know there is added value on a home that has been lived in and maintained upgraded, etc by the owner. Also, buyers will pay a premium for a homes that do not have to "wait" for. My cash deal have all sold higher than ones with mortgages. is this the way we raise the value on real estate??????

HOPEFUL: (October 15, 2009 9:39am)

Right on CLULESSDAD! Now a word to everyone that will make your posts easier to be read and not just skipped over - MAKE IT SHORT! Several short posts are better than one long post since F & B won't allow paragraph breaks in the blog.

TEXASAPPRAISER: (October 15, 2009 9:38am)

Frank, to those who created the HVCC, You do not know it, but you are making their arguement to keep it in effect. If you ask us to do something illegal, and some do it or dont, Its enough to show the the HVCC is needed. DONT ANY of you get this. That is why appraisers are telling you to stop. They would prefer if you did not think this way, But they want you to stop using it as a defense. just like realtors saying the appraisal are poor because they are not making contract price. Do you get that???? If you dont were are all screwed!!!

Lender Who Knows Better: (October 15, 2009 9:35am)

Neither the appraiser, the lender nor the real estate agents have control over multiple bids. In CA it is absolutely required that Real Estate Agents submit ALL OFFERS. Do you think the property seller is going to take the lowest bid? In select areas in So Cal, properties are being bid up again. In many of those cases the buyers were able to come up with the resources to close the transaction. Guess what? That closed sale became a comparable regardless of the financing.

?!?!?!? (polite for WTF?): (October 15, 2009 9:34am)

I may have missed something in an earlier video, but let's not pretend that there weren't 100,000 loan brokers pushing for higher values so they could make higher yields. Separate but-honest- value should be 5% range in the IRS's opinion, but those brokers didn't want honest. If you come in at the TOP of the range fore the lender and the bottom of the range for the IRS, YOU'RE not an honest appraiser. The definition is "most probable" not "most-probably-will-make-the-deal." The 100,000 wanted the 3-highest-comps-within-1-mile, and don't-hit-the-adjustments-too-hard so called "appraisers" who happened to have access to. or could forge a real licensee's signature on the report.

Old Timer: (October 15, 2009 9:34am)

CLUELESSDAD - Asking for a range of recent market sales is not bad, I feel that most people here are capable of determining a "reasonable" range, based upon market data.. Specifics of a single property should not be asked for without a thorough analysis of the market.... Asking for the appraiser to give the "highest value" in order to maximize profit or "hit" the intended L-T-V requirement, and "shopping" for the highest (which ALWAYS gets cut in review anyway) appraiser is unethical... Having the appraiser "throw" you a number, without their doing due diligence and proper analytics on a property and neighborhood is a violation of USPAP, and jeopardizes their licensure.

EdC - 20 yrs appraising: (October 15, 2009 9:33am)

USPAP is the bible of appraising - hilarious. There's a higher power that will punish you for unenforceable tenets? USPAP god? USPAP is a work in progress and that's all. It can and will change depending on circumstances.

Clulessdad: (October 15, 2009 9:33am)

I am not an appraiser fluent in every word of USPAP. Can you appraisers out there read my last post and see what CAN be done to help us put deals together?

centralORappraiser: (October 15, 2009 9:31am)

I agree with you guys. When appraisers become appraisers, they usually do not realize they will need to spend as much time running a business and dealing with clients as much as they will be appriasing. Realtors, brokers, borrowers, owners, all have a monetary or personal stake in a transaction. I personally do not take offense by this. Understandably, clients can be anxious for good reasons. I've had my own business and have had high pressure corporate jobs prior to becoming an appraisers. I've been groomed to listen to my customers needs ($-?-!), and concerns and treat that as added insight that may or may not lend itself to an assignment. I only reconize this kind of input as "presure" if I allow myself to be presured by it. The value of my appraisals will still be what it will be regardless of what a client needs($. Bottom line--I feel business management classes are just as important for appraisers and should be part of the required courses prior to becoming an appraiser. These courses should be streamlined to deal speciffically with appraiser issues in business. One item being this issue of "pressure". I love my career as an appraiser. But, I'm turned off by the lack of professionalism in our industry. HVCC would never have happened if appraisers were trained and prepared for the business end of appraising.

centralORappraiser: (October 15, 2009 9:31am)

I agree with you guys. When appraisers become appraisers, they usually do not realize they will need to spend as much time running a business and dealing with clients as much as they will be appriasing. Realtors, brokers, borrowers, owners, all have a monetary or personal stake in a transaction. I personally do not take offense by this. Understandably, clients can be anxious for good reasons. I've had my own business and have had high pressure corporate jobs prior to becoming an appraisers. I've been groomed to listen to my customers needs ($-?-!), and concerns and treat that as added insight that may or may not lend itself to an assignment. I only reconize this kind of input as "presure" if I allow myself to be presured by it. The value of my appraisals will still be what it will be regardless of what a client needs($. Bottom line--I feel business management classes are just as important for appraisers and should be part of the required courses prior to becoming an appraiser. These courses should be streamlined to deal speciffically with appraiser issues in business. One item being this issue of "pressure". I love my career as an appraiser. But, I'm turned off by the lack of professionalism in our industry. HVCC would never have happened if appraisers were trained and prepared for the business end of appraising.

generaljean: (October 15, 2009 9:26am)

According to USPAP, which is the bible to appraising, states that any value, estimate or range of value, is an appraisal and we must maintain a work file and all data that was considered in reporting the value or range of value. Also, we are liable for the "verbal appraisal" we gave. This is the reason we cannot do comp searches. If your value comes in low and you KNOW there are better comps that will prove a higher value, you can ask your lender to ask for a reconsideration of value and supply comps that you wish to be considered. Be sure the comps are of the same quality of construction, have a recent sale date to reflect the current market, and that you are not passing up nearby comps and going further in distance to pick a superior value comp. Also, are REO comps putting pressure on the market? If they are a significant part of your market, they must be considered. There are a lot of factors an appraiser has to consider. Hope this helps.

Nick: (October 15, 2009 9:24am)

You guys have just contradicted yourselves and shown that you do not really know much about appraising. You state shopping for high appraisal values is part of the business and then state that loan officers are looking for the best accurate appraisal. This is a contradiction; higher does not equal accurate. In addition you expect an appraiser to give an opinion of value before an appraisal be performed; an appraisal is an opinion of value and an appraisal has been performed by verbally stating an opinion of value. I have no problem with this if you want to pay for each opinion given. After all, we assume a huge liability by providing a 'verbal' appraisal. Not to mention that a quick opinion can take an hour or more to put together if done with any due diligence. Sure this could be done quicker but let's say I provide an off-the-cuff appraisal (opinion of value) and 'win' the job. What happens if, after performing proper due diligence, the value is lower than what I had quoted the loan officer? Will I get any more work if my appraisal is lower than my off-the-cuff value? Therein lies the problem, a pre-determined value and potentially a commitment of fraud. As spokespersons for the mortgage industry you may wish to be more informed before you potentially promote the use of fraud to close a loan.

double d: (October 15, 2009 9:23am)

Does anyone know of a lender (besides Flagstar)that will let you do a cash-out refinance on a home just taken off the market over a week ago?

TheFyouSay: (October 15, 2009 9:21am)

@turnip head .. I hate Chip Cummings. He screwed me out of $200 bucks with some crap system.

Lender Who Knows Better: (October 15, 2009 9:21am)

Opinions can cost you money in a CA court...Real Estate Agents, Lenders and Appraisers are considered EXPERTS here and your opinion can be considered FACT. I have found some agents reluctant to provide Broker Price Opinions (BPO) because of this.

appraiser who likes brokers: (October 15, 2009 9:15am)

Hey guys, I like your show and your fight against the HVCC, but please don't bring copies of your last several video posts to Washington. You're hurting, not helping with your latest comments.

good news bear..: (October 15, 2009 9:13am)

Met a new Mortgage banker yesterday. They hired a law firm to help them form there own group of appraisers and formed a separate division following the HVCC guidelines. Loans are running like silk, appraisers are paid there normal fee and the lender gets to speak to the appraiser when there is a value question. SO there you go! Hire a Lawyer and form your own HVCC company!

Storman Underwriter: (October 15, 2009 9:13am)

It is amazing how everyone has seamed to forget who listed the home for $ x, or sold it for $ x. I never hear a gripe about the realtors. I can't tell the number of time I have had to tell a realtor that his sales price of $200,000 came in at $150,000 and that I totally agreed with the appraiser. Now I have a seller who is pissed, a listing & selling agent who is pissed, let a lone a buyer who really wanted the home who is pist.

ExAppraiser-NowLending: (October 15, 2009 9:12am)

SoCal - Thanks for the well wishes! I hope things continue to go well for you, too. The best part about it - every deal I close is self-generated. A true originator. No walk-in's (I work from home), no company-provided marketing. Just hitting the pavement and networking with real estate agents. Commission only a high split. The only way I'd ever have it!

freshman 15: (October 15, 2009 9:11am)

If you cannot get me a comp, NEXT...to the curb like your freshman girlfriend that came back home from college and gained 35 pounds!

Sacto: (October 15, 2009 9:11am)

we all need to go work for HUD as counselors, forget loans and real estate, this process will slow things down so much there won't be any business. isn't the DE underwriters supposed to review the loan before accepting it? boy, I hope that job pays well, where do I get an application? One more example of too much Govt. Yes, our industry needs to be policed, but this is way too much. do all the people who bought homes between 1950-2000 feel they got a raw deal, or worse than those between 200-2008? subprime did get out of hand, but they weighted the risk. we should have let them sink, there will always be someone who is willing to take the risk, if they fail so what. all sort of businesses fail, new ones grow!

Lender Who Knows Better: (October 15, 2009 9:10am)

I was talking to someone about this mess at a baseball tournament and found that she blames bankers. She doesn't know I'm a lender. Turns out she had taken a 1% start rate negative amortization loan and had let it go to foreclosure. She had used the money to take a wonderful trip to Hawaii, bought a $60,000 2006 Lexus and a $250,000 motor home all cash. I asked her if she had enjoyed her trip to Hawaii...Her response was that they stay at a wonderful hotel and easily spent over $20,000. I knew she still had her Lexus and asked if she loved her motor home. She said she loves it because they take it to their son's baseball tournaments and it saves them on hotels. She says that she was misled and let her home go through a short sale.

ALApprazer: (October 15, 2009 9:09am)

ExAppraiser-NowLending. Like anything else in life, you get what you pay for. And that includes the quality of the work preformed. Again, I see the value in communication between the LO and the appraiser in determining if there is a deal. But be careful that you are confident that the one giving the value, especially if it is free, is giving you good information.

Clulessdad: (October 15, 2009 9:08am)

Can some of the appraisers answer an LO's needs and not violate USPAP? I am a "scum" broker (lol) and I want to tell you what we do and ask you how we can solve our problem. Maybe some appraisers don't understand what it really takes to originate loans nowadays, so I want to give you LO 101. Some of this is debatable, and I don't want to pick the "flysh*t out of the pepper" but it is close. Let me explain. First we have to get a client, whether it be from telemarketing to advertising to referrals. For every 20 or so client contacts, we may get 5-10 clients that after an hour's phone conversation we can take to the next step. Several lengthy phone calls, emails, GFE's, and authorizations later, we can now start getting personal information from the Borrower to evaluate whether they can potentially qualify to get a loan. The 4 major items we are after are 1)credit history (this is more than running a credit report-we have to analyze the payment depth, payment history and public records. Then we have to counsel the client with our knowledge, give them a copy of the credit report and give them advice on how to go about getting mistakes reversed. ( Not everyone has 800 credit scores) In some cases, I even help the client with 3 way conversations with the creditor or credit agency because they have no clue.) 2)Next we evaluate their income thru paystubs, w-2's and tax returns. That is always several hours worth of work, if you are lucky enough to have a client that is organized. Give me a selfemployed person with S-Corp returns and it gets really interesting. 3) Now we have to evaulate assets, with a detailed explanation of every deposit these people have made over the last three months and papertrail every one that is not a payroll deposit. (Fun so far, isn't it?) 4) now we have to evaluate the collaterol value. This is big from the lenders as the amount of equity is proportional to risk. Lenders base their programs on Loan to Value, credit, and loan type and in some cases these levels are make or break, and in many other cases will incur HUGE fees to the Borrower. As of Jan 1,2010, we now have to disclose an exact Good Faith Estimate to the Borrower, with an EXACT disclosure of what all their fees are going to be. Has any appraiser seen the matrix of fees from FNMA that govern credit score, loan to value and type of loan? In some cases, these items can alter a borrowers fees by up to 5 points! That is 5% of the loan amount, or $10,000 for a $200,000 loan! If you are a client, don't you want your LO to be able to be more specific than $0-$10000 in additional fees? We can't quote that til we are relatively certain of the previous paramaters. At this point nowadays, out of the first 20 calls, I probably only have 1-2 that may qualify for anything. (Now is when the clients go rate shopping, knowing that they can qualify for a loan. Now they don't care how much work I have done or all the education I have given them. By law, they are entitled to shop around for this. They also are allowed by RESPA to shop around for any 3rd party service provider, including appraisals. This fact in itself is why HVCC is illegal.) So I ask all the appraisers out there, what can you supply me to help me with my needs to properly estimate the collaterol value so that WE can get this done? Even an defensible estimated range will help. I don't have access to MLS or all the databases out there. Appraisers are all different and every appraiser has different sources or just plain use different sales as comps. I just recently had the same property appraised by 3 different appraisers in the span of two months. Their opinions? $275, $242 and then $260. All used different comps-go figure how this happened? Mind you this is the first step in getting someone a loan. Now we have several days worth of paperwork, computer input, AUS approvals, and underwiter guideline changes to contend with. I need a fairly accurate estimate of value, or range, or all the sales before I go thru with all this time to throw something against the wall to see if all this seems feasible to the client. That is what I need to originate a loan and be a professional. What can you do for me to help with OUR deal and not violate USPAP? Come on people, stop name calling and be the professionals that we should be. What is the compromise to the "scum" LO needs and the appraiser needs of appraiser independence? When we figure this out, we will have the answer to HVCC.

TEXAPPRAISER: (October 15, 2009 9:06am)

Everyone here is missing the point. A few points 1. any predetermined value can get the appraiser in trouble, things always change when you get to the home. 2. market value is "most probable price" not highest price by all appraisers asked for value. 3. Frank will not address the issue of making his appraiser violate the laws that govern them. I do not care what he says about not twisting arms, would you falsify income- No, no ones twisting your arm, he wont even acknowlegde the fact that bad brokers do want inflated values. these guys hide behind "getting rid of the HVCC" for everybody, but its clear, its to go back to the old push value system. Think about it, all appraiser have heard this before, I am not twisting your arm, we need x to make loan, loan closes from other appraisal that we all know was pushed, first and second appraiser who did NOT do job worked for free, Highest appraiser got job. Thats why every appraiser here is mad. This happens every week, not just every once in awhile. They are helping the arguement to keep HVCC just like when realtors keep saying that low values are hurting but low values are acurate. If they are not careful, a few tweaks to the HVCC based on their comments will ruin it for us all. If AMC's limit the distance the appraiser must be from the property, and force AMC's to rotate their order to all appraiser who must be approved and remove appraisers who do poor work, the HVCC will be fixed based on broker coomplaints. ALL of you will have no leg to stand on to fight HVCC. Just admit the certain LO's will push value and you may have an arguement, keep pushing your independent fee appriaser under the guise of highest predetermiend value which is different than shopping appraisers (for best quality) and you will fix this problem. This showed your true colors and all your readers have shown theirs, no one is looking out for the appraiser. Call me all the names you want, but respond with points and facts. We appraisers have to balance USPAP and real life situations, this thing about not knowing the rate is not illegal, thats a pretty lame arguement.

Starving Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 9:05am)

F & B, seems like you changed your stance a little from yesterday when you where "shopping for a number" and today you're shopping for an appraiser. Please shop me, an appraiser, based on my quality of report, turn time, customer service/communications skills, etc. BUT don't shop me for a number. Today you claim to ONLY utilize trusted and liked appraisers, and wouldn't use one you didn't know...yet yesterday you sd if he couldn't hit the #, you'd go down the aisle to "Dave's" cubicle & use his appraiser if he could hit the number. Contradicting yourself and sounding kinda "lawyerish" to me. Anyone else notice this? As someone said, you can't have it both ways. If you are using liked & trusted appraisers, no need to shop for a number. CAREFULLY now, you might think of utilizing a quality control person or at least a good spell check program...at the 2:30 mark in today's video the verbiage on the screen sd "MULIT instead of MULTI" and "Counselling instead of Counseling". Next thing you know your Video Marketing Services will be getting "SHOPPED" as well. I believe comp checks should be allowed, and require a small fee, to help protect the consumer, but they aren't. Let's change that reg to allow comp checks for a fee. Or wait, we don't make the rules we only get to abide by them.

Broker Scum (According to appraisers): (October 15, 2009 9:04am)

Wow, can't we all just get along? If you are offended by the daily videos, I suggest that you stop watching them. The information is good. Their opinions are what they are, one persons opinion on a subject matter. I don't see Frank and Brian making personal attacks on appraisers, but I do see appraisers making personal attacks on them. If brokers are scum, why do appraisers work with them? If Frank and Brian are scum, why are you on their site? What does that make you? Frank and Brian, your show is great. I take your opinions for what they are. The industry updates are great and help out. Thanks for sharing daily.

Storman underwriter: (October 15, 2009 9:04am)

All of you complainers need to get a grip. You are men and women. As appraisers or underwriters or bankers or brokers, you are doing your job based on the information provided. Whether it is looking at a home or looking at someone's mortgage application file. The end result is it is YOUR OPINION. YOUR OPINION the house is worth $.... YOUR OPINION the borrower will make the payment. Quit stabing each other and go after the big dogs that have made all our lives a mess. Who created the subprime mortgages? The stated income mortgage? The liar loans? It was not the appraiser, it was not the mortgage brokers, it was not the mortgage underwriters. I know of blocks where flipping sales, between a group of investors was rampant. That caused inflated values. We all know that closed sales make comps. And lets all be honest, we all would be out of a job if there was no real estate transactions. Can you picture the government coming in and saying everyhome in Los Angeles will sell for $300,000, and every home in Chicago will sell for $250,000. Boys, lets go after the real problem causers in our industry and not bicker at each other.

SoCal: (October 15, 2009 9:03am)

Ex Appraiser-Now Lending. I couldn't be happier for you. Congratulations. Finally a success story. I have 5 purchases closing this month myself. I complain about the paperwork nonsense, but nothing pays the bills quite like a loan that closes. I wish you continued success!

turnip head: (October 15, 2009 9:02am)

chip has a head like a turnip

bo in tx: (October 15, 2009 9:01am)

Tampa Bay - Right on, $50 bucks for a rest use comp check all day long, then a deal if they go with you. You the man.

TheFyouSay: (October 15, 2009 9:01am)

OK I get it. All of us mortgage Brokers and Bankers are scum. You Appraisers didn't and don't like dealing with us because we wanted to know what value was probable before we had a client pay you for an opinion of value as to not throw away their money. This might be an indication of how we do business as a whole. When I take an application if the income, assets and value are well out of guidelines I STOP THERE. I dont have the borrower still send me a $500 application fee knowing that a deal wont work. With your way of doing business you would have a fee sent even if the deal wouldn't work. Now in many other parts of the country a long time ago people got a piece of dirt and build a house on it, these homes were all different because different people had different needs. Here in Southern California 90% of the time Developers got large pieces of land split them up into 200-300 small pieces and sold 3 maybe 4 models of homes on them. When I pull comps and see identical sq footage within a half mile (aka model match) in the same development I come up with a range that MY assumption is will be a value range for my subject property. Are you saying that if I call my appraiser (the same one that I have been using for 9 years) and ask if MY opinion is close to what his will be that is wrong? If the appraisal gets done in my county HE will do it period (pre-HVCC) but if I am off he will tell me there is no way to get that value, saving me time and my client money (hence my comp-check). The appraisers on here keep complaining about how us Brokers and Bankers do business so a rule was imposed the HVCC. So appraisers rejoice!! Oh wait, isn't the reason that you found think big work small and the daily in the first place because of a petition to stop the HVCC? SO you don't like how we do business now, you didn't like how we did business then and you won't like how we do business in the future. Here's a master plan for you... Get in another business!!! Instead for coming on someones website and calling them an idiot why don't you make your own? If you are the anti idiot all of the appraiser idiots will follow you from here and stop clogging out message boards with bull$h1t posts about how we suck and they can go watch YOUR videos and comment about how WE suck. But really... I will host the website for free. Just leave please, or better yet stay and contribute something of value instead of saying that Frank and Brian are idiots.

Gsays: (October 15, 2009 9:00am)

people will cry no matter what, boo hoo hoo! if you are a good, honest appraiser you'll get work. if you give value where there is no value, that will float to the surface and you'll spend more time arguing you values than working. we lenders get shopped, realtors get shopped, appraiser need to be shopped. AMC's have ruined the industry, period. only low quality appraiser's with little experience like HVCC and the AMC's, the 3rd party doing nothing but putting there hands out. stop crying and get to work for your clients.

FED up: (October 15, 2009 8:59am)

I understand and like what your saying in a perfect "honest" world, but we all know that we don't live there. What you wind up with is appraisers wanting to "not lose the business" and fluffing the numbers "just enough to get the deal" and it snowballs into the false market that we are all realing from. It's the same problem that is in the mortgage industry, to a point, with brokers telling clients that they can give them a ficticious low rate just to get the business because they are being shopped. Now don't get me wrong the 4th party HVCC is not the way to go, because you wind up with too many hands in the cookie jar and you're left with the client paying in the end. We need to create a scientific approach to appraising and cut down on the opinions, afterall set numbers don't lie. In the end, there should be a set scientific approach with a 2% curve attached, which is more than fair in a "normal market", which we could attain again if we could move this inventory. I know I'm thinking out of the box, but we need to if we want to stop the influx of government control in our industry.

Shane: (October 15, 2009 8:58am)

L.O.S.E.R.S. for R.A.T.s I'm with you Rondon. Why bother learning your profession, establishing clientele, chasing after business, providing quality service, and caring about your client. Let's hire some lobbyists, payoff some politicians, blame it all on the scumbag appraisers/banks/laywers/dumb a*s borrowers eliminate competition and just wait for the files to roll on in. All fees up front whether we get you the loan or not. LOL

ExAppraiser-NowLending: (October 15, 2009 8:58am)

SoCal - It was a big transition for me, but the best change I've made in life. I have 7 purchases slated to close this month, along with 2 Refi's, and I'm making more money than I ever have - IN A TERRIBLE MARKET to top it. I'm taking the lemons, and making lemonade. And having an appraisal background really helps. I don't really need comp checks as often. I do them myself.

Lender Who Knows Better: (October 15, 2009 8:57am)

If you ask my apprasier if I have ever asked her to push value, her reply would be "Never." I trusted her completely. Banks and wholesale lenders always had the power to ask for Desk Reviews AND Field Reveiws on appraisals. Banks have always kept "Black Lists" of appraisers. They should have taken it one step further and black listed the lenders and their brokers AND watch list the real estate agents. Eventually all the trash would have been driven out of the Real Estate business.

Shut yer Pieholes!: (October 15, 2009 8:56am)

Appraisers you guys need to recognize who is on your team here, Brian and Frank have been championing your cause now for months. All we hear from you whiney little bastards is a chance to bitch at anyone and anything becuase the old days were so much more fun because you got paid more, shut yer pieholes and go and take your complaining to your local gov't..they are the people you need to expend your childish antics on!

Indy appman: (October 15, 2009 8:53am)

I dont get the argument on asking a plumber, mechanic etc for their price before the do the job. You can call me as an appraiser for my price all you want, "my fee for this appraisal is x amount". Ill tell you if its a 1004, a 2005, etc but Im not going to do the work. A mechanic will say its a belt, hose, etc, but will not do the work. My point, Ill tell you WHAT i'm going to do, and HOW I will have to do it, but if you want the full job- it's pay up. LO's, you should already know your appraisers fees for particular assignment, so why shop?

Broker Scum (According to appraisers): (October 15, 2009 8:52am)

Wow, can't we all just get along? If you are offended by the daily videos, I suggest that you stop watching them. The information is good. Their opinions are what they are, one persons opinion on a subject matter. I don't see Frank and Brian making personal attacks on appraisers, but I do see appraisers making personal attacks on them. If brokers are scum, why do appraisers work with them? If Frank and Brian are scum, why are you on their site? What does that make you? Frank and Brian, your show is great. I take your opinions for what they are. The industry updates are great and help out. Thanks for sharing daily.

Common Sense: (October 15, 2009 8:52am)

We have skin in the game everytime someone comes in the door also. Credit reports, DO/LP runs, not to mention our overhead. The appraiser didn't have advertising cost to achieve the potential borrower. I have supported my local professional appraisers for over 10 years with my business. If they can't give me a comp, next.

SoCal: (October 15, 2009 8:51am)

I wonder how the appraiser who quit and went into lending likes each side. I'm a lender and all I could think of was "Going from the frying pan into the fire." Lending sucks these days. I can't imagine quitting and staying in the same industry. This whole thing sucks now, for all of us.

loaner55: (October 15, 2009 8:50am)

All of this in a nutshell guys and gals..... Somewhere along the way we gave politicians way too much power and now they can do whatever they want and we are helpless. If you don't think so just look at the Electoral College. Just because voters vote for a candidate doesn't mean the EC has to put his/her vote for that Candidate. So why do we think that 'our' Representatives are going to listen to us? Until we get the power back away from them or put in some really strong public oversight organizations we are going to have to just live with what they want. Sure, we all know that all of these programs they are putting in place because 'they' think they will help are nothing but crap, but most people don't give a hoot because they are just followers and they are the same ones that will bitch about it when it goes bad. As long as we have the Bernankies and the Paulsons and the Geitners in control we had either better have a team, a strong team, to fight them, or just go with the flow like most people do and let government screw us like they usually do. Just my opinion.

BEARS: (October 15, 2009 8:49am)

ALApprazer: You want a fee for comp checks? I want a fee for shopping borrowers. Neither one of us are going to get it. Borrowers shop us, we shop you and wholesalers so that we can keep our borrowers and close the loan.

Old Timer: (October 15, 2009 8:49am)

Bill C - I NEVER look at the sales price on a contract... that really has NO determination of market value to me, as it should not matter to all appraisers. Too many shady contracts hiding concessions to actually "believe" the purchase price.... The problem is that there are too many "form filler box checkers" in the appraisal profession who really don't know what they are doing.

EdC: (October 15, 2009 8:47am)

Comp checks - say yes, say no. It doesn't matter either way. It's all up to you to be honest and ethical in your business and be able to support your opinion of value. CYA. It gets me how some appraisers seem to be so vehemently against mortgage brokers. The only reason that makes sense to me is that they're basically unethical or unskilled and couldn't get real lender work and they probably had their phone ringing off the hook with comp check brokers and still they never got work. Know when to say no, simple. There's no reason at all for this barage attack on brokers. None, if you're ethical. Maybe you hate yourself for some of the deals you did at the urging of unscrupulous brokers? That's your own fault. Before you go blaming brokers take a good look in the mirror and remember your own contributions to the state of the union and HAVOCC and the imminent destruction of our professions. Being part of the problem is no solution.

ExAppraiser-NowLending: (October 15, 2009 8:46am)

ALApprazer - I'll gladly pay you the $50 "Comp Out" fee just as soon as I can collect $50 for every rate I quote. I'm licensed just like you are, and it costs me money to maintain my licensing. What now?

Tampa Bay General Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 8:44am)

I do "comp checks"..... it's called a restricted-use limited desk appraisal. It's pretty simple, just 2 pages (and some CYA comments), and I charge $50 for it (paid when I do it, NOT on the HUD). I keep a workfile on it, do my due diligence, and when you want a complete appraisal, I work you a deal. If you want one for free, no thanks... Been doing this for years... If you want a value, go to one of the online sites yourself instead of asking for a "freebie" that violates government laws....... If you need me for a "value", I'm in the Tampa Bay market.

BillC: (October 15, 2009 8:43am)

Old Timer, Thank you for clearing this up. I know about the concessions and commissions but it seems that we, the whole industry would have less issues on value if the contract price wasn't disclosed to the appraiser so they can give us an unbiased opinion. Now, I can tell that you aren't like some appraisers and you give an honest value but many appraisers look at the contract and try to stay close to the purchase price. If it doesn't appraise it doesn't appraise and the contract has to be adjusted. I don't want dishonest people in our profession and I think this would help everyone involved. Thank you again for you explanation.

Lender: (October 15, 2009 8:43am)

I get emailed at least once a week by an appraiser or appraisal company offering "Free Comp Checks." I only call my appraiser for value because I know him and trust him, and we both know it's a range (Just a ballpark figure) Instead of you appraisers calling lenders scum because we use the services of apraisers, maybe you should take it up with your own peers. The law also says no BJ's in Arkansas, I wonder how many of them follow that? Use common sense in business and you will survive, don't use it and you won't.

ExAppraiser-NowLending: (October 15, 2009 8:43am)

Most of the time I'm shopping for an appraisal, I don't even tell my appraisers what value I'm looking for. I want to know what value they think they can reconcile without a target, that way I know that the appraisal is likely to make it through underwriting without a value cut. If I were to give them a target, yes, they'd probably find a way to stretch the value. But that doesn't do me any good as a lender, because these appraisals are being put under a microscope by underwriters due to the current economic landscape. I'm not in to WASTING my clients money that they work so hard for today, so feeling more secure upfront about what I'm able to do is what helps me generate future referrals from happy homeowners. When I shop for an appraisal, I'm not trying to upset appraisers; just like a borrower isn't trying to upset lenders when he shops for the best rate. My #1 goal is to make each client my #1 fan, and wasting their money on appraisals is counter-productive to my goal.

Shane: (October 15, 2009 8:41am)

Did scumbag lenders stretch values or was it scumbag appraisers? Me personally I don't remeber the last Mortgage Broker I called to order an appraisal from on a loan. Why is the solution to allow incompetent appraisers full access and unregulated ability to screwing the borrower? As an appraiser are you really trying to maintain the position that AMC's are hiring only qualified, experienced, and reputable appraisers, not a very tenable position. As a broker I would never try to say there aren't incompetent or scumbag Brokers, b*llsh*t should at least be believable. Borrower's are allowed free access to shop brokers looking for the right one just for that reason. HVCC prevents the same standards with appraisers. Your competentcy or incompetentcy is irrelevant your opinion now becomes the only opinion. I see why appraisers love HVCC they get paid even if they decide to work half as hard. I support something similar to HVCC for Mortgage Brokers once a borrower signs there is no shopping you take what we give you, WHO'S WITH ME? Just in case your not the most intelligent let me point out I was employing a little literary tool called irony and sarcasm.

ALApprazer: (October 15, 2009 8:39am)

I understand how a broker would have the need to want ot narrow down a number in order to put a package together. How much time do any of us like putting into something that there is no guarantee of any return on our time. There in lies the rub about the "comp out". No one wants to work for free. I am sure many of you are saying, "Come on, it just a comp out". That comp out still requires an appraiser to spend time and resources that have a cost in order to complete. So, I guess my question is, to both brokers and appraisers, would you feel differently about the "Comp Out" if there was a cost involved? As an appraiser, would you complain about being "shopped" if you got $50.00 to do the comp out? As a broker, would you be willing to pay the $50.00 to help you in determining up front if you actually have a deal? I know some one out there is going to say, "see, it is all about the money for appraisers". To that I say, NO SH*T. Why have the education, licensing, overhead costs if you aren't in it for the money.

Common Sense: (October 15, 2009 8:31am)

To professional appraiser, the only problem with not letting a loan officer aware of comps in a particular area causes borrowers to be out money without producing a loan to reduce interest and monthly costs to their note, which is needed in this recession. Instead, we will just be putting our society further under by having them put out money for nothing. Comps are not considered the actual value until the house is appraised. But, at least, it gives you a basis to go on and that you just aren't taking advantage of would-be borrowers who may not be in the right ball park to do the loan in the first place. In addition, USPAP is there to protect the lender and not the borrower. So, when someone pays for an appraisal it is not even considered their own to send where they wish. In a capatilist society, if you pay for something it is considered that you own it. If this is the rule then the lender should take the risk and pay for all appraisals. Common Sense. Rules are rules but that doesn't make it right.

Old Dog: (October 15, 2009 8:28am)

So Cal is right. Frank, as a real estate broker, I'm sure you have given a home owner a realistic value that their home should be listed for on the market. Then another hungry agent comes behind you and convinces the homeowner to list with him because they can get them a higher (unrealistic)price. The property sits on the market for months and becomes "market weary" and then sells below what it should have. How much did you appreciate the agent who took away your listing? Motivation is not just the owner's gig.

ne appraiser: (October 15, 2009 8:22am)

Frank @ TBWS.. your such scumm... how dare you talk to appraisers.. yes we have acting classes. Its part of the MCE we do.. advanced appraisal classes are code for how to fool the Loan officers. .... I love you guys.. I really dont know why every one has their panties in a bunch over shopping a appraisal. Its really part of the free market enterprise. Or at least it was.. I (as an appraiser) never cared and I expected it many time. Appraisers get used to it, many of you are not going to make it over the next few years because of the HVCC. Your fees are going to get Cut and your not going to make as much. Figure out a way to make more money. Stop whining and get to work on how to make more.

Old Dog: (October 15, 2009 8:21am)

Financial advisor...do you get paid only after your client makes money in the stock market? Just because the loan does not close does not mean that the appraisal report was not prepared in an ethical and complete matter. Lots of things happen to kill the deal. Sometimes too, the property is just not worth the money....ever heard of fraud, or greed, or poor investments? OMG I'm so surprised at the continued ignorance expressed on this site. I must be wasting my time.

old timer: (October 15, 2009 8:20am)

BILL C. - The reason FANNIE MAE wants us to review the contract is this... They would like to know (from an uninterested, non biased party) if there are any unusual characteristics os seller concessions within the contract, and adjust accordingly within the report... Breaking it down, if a contract is for $200,000 with 6% seller paid concessions, the 'ACUAL" sales price would be $188,000 and a $12,000 adjustment must be made to determine "true" value. Also, the appraisers are supposed to verify sales concessions of the comparable sales to also make adjustments for actual market value, NOT market value PLUS 6% seller concessions.... Fannie Mae requires these adjustment, therefore, we need to analyze the contract for unusual issues, thats all.... Any appraiser that needs a contract to determine value should not be in the business... Hope this helps

MortgageBankerC: (October 15, 2009 8:20am)

Please show me how the 4400 know nothing government desk jockeys are going to improve ANYTHING for the industry in general? Lenders - at this point another hurdle, adding 3-5 days before closing, not to mention here's another hook the government can use to claim that you deny too much, approve too much, pick a reason - the government feels the need to step in and be a guiding force over this financial entity. Bank ownership - don't worry Banks could never be taken over by the government in this country. Appraisers - with or without HVCC bliss - they could disagree and call you out as an appraiser who always over values, under values. Ever send anything through the mail or internet - You've just been charged with mail and wire fraud (x) times(Insert number of appraisals you've done last month in x.)You'll soon be viewing Frank and Gary from your new state of the art Federal prison cell for white collar criminals. Potential homeowners - you hate the fees now and think your being overcharged, just wait its only going to get more expensive, more confusing, less affordable until the government implements their "Fairness in Underwriting & Credit / Killing Yeild-spread, Ownership Unification" program. Anybody want to guess this acronym. No matter how you cut it or look at it its horrible for everyone except (drum roll) the government. It makes everyone more dependent. Starting with the homeowner - Can I buy property with my own money which I earned, you taxed and amazingly enough, I managed to keep some of it away from the government while supporting my family and holding on to my job despite government interference? Oh yeah, those financial guys/girls, appraisers, realtors, title, underwriting, closers, and so on and so on who all depend on the home buyer to drive and partially fund this entire section of the economy - Can they please earn an honest living? Until Barney Frank sees that any one of these groups should make no more than what he says. Its ok, once they all become government employees,(drones, lemmings- call it what you will) your salary will be determined regardless of knowledge, ability, success. Any factor that put you in the private sector. Should we continue to expand on a few more of the potential problems with this?????????????? Just one other little thing - Please tell me who the 1% thinks this is a good idea? REALLY? I'm not trying to insult anyone for their opinion but YOU(1%) really need to explain this one to me.

TexasBanker : (October 15, 2009 8:19am)

The whole HVCC rules are just unfair to the Customer. Anyone can call a Plumber, Car salesman, Raeltor or just about any other professional, and ask for a estimated price, even Attorneys can provide an estimate on services, and yes a Loan Officer can provide a client rates nad fees and a GFE. Why is it an Appraisal can not be estimated to save all parties time and money and effort.The new HVCC process is the worst ammendment to be introduced to our business. This is what happens when politicains, with no true knowledge or experience, are allowed to make a policy in the private sector where they obviously have no business having authority.Our new administration is copiled with many people with years of college and education, however they have very little experience in the private sector, most politicains have never owned a company, or worked outside of the Goverment, so why is it that these people think they can change our industry, with their limited knowledge? it would be like asking a 9 year loan veteran like myself to fix a broken car, I do not have the skills or the tools to proform such a task.. For all of us on this blog belly aching about the new changes, well if you really want some changes to help us, you better vote in your state and district to get rid of the Liberals. Because according to the Liberals, they are smarter than all of us and they plan on usising their powers to destroy the Mortgage Bizz as we know it. These problems and changes are here to stay as long as "they stay in office" and more changes are on the way, and some of them are worse than what we are dealing with today.Remember the old days and who were friends to our industry.. Those of you who wanted a Change and voted for the Liberals well you got it, and it could be here for 4-8 more years!! Or you can get out and spread the word and VOTE these Jokers out of office.. Until that happens, this blog will be more of the same old moan and complain... For those of you that are old enough to remember, the GOP has always supported NAR and NAMB, and our industry. Dont get me wrong changes were due no matter who won the election, but the GOP was not out to destroy our industry, and blame Brokers and Appraisers for the problems, when the undelaying problem was greed from the TOP all the way down to the borrowers... So make your voices heard and VOTE for the correct change next time, not what the media tells you to do..

SoCal Appraising: (October 15, 2009 8:17am)

A comp check is possible per USPAP people. Use the departure rule. The problem is shopping comp checks *ENCOURAGES* bad appraising. The work goes to the bad appraiser who promises high values in the comp check process regardless if he hits them or not. You guys don't want bad appraisers in the industry. That's why shopping is a bad deal and why HVCC is bad. Make relationships with peoples opinions you trust. Those people should give you their honest opinions and you work from there. Salesmen are taught that every deal can be closed. That's not always the case here. Sometimes the value just isn't there.

Blatantly: (October 15, 2009 8:16am)

Man I wish the Lenders had a LENDERPAP! Then we could get paid for all the time we spend educating the borrowers and trying to get a loan. It must be nice to have a sugar daddy pimping for you!

professional appraiser: (October 15, 2009 8:15am)

Frank, the difference is if a borrower shops a lender, no problem. But if a borrower/lender shops an appraiser, it is a problem. USPAP prohibits us from giving "any" value without an appraisal. The only way to give a "value", upfront is to notify the lender/borrower that this would be an appraisal, limited in scope and charge them. We appraisers are prohibited from giving values, period.

Old Dog: (October 15, 2009 8:13am)

I agree with Sniper....if you are going to continue this program and the fight against HVCC, then you better get together with an experienced appraiser, one who teaches USPAP and get an understanding of our business. You obviously do not know much about it and I'm really surprised at your ignorance on the subject. To LO....tell me about the appraisers who do 100 reports a month...I really want to do that!!

Honest Value: (October 15, 2009 8:12am)

BillC you ask why appraiser needs the sales contract. Read the 1st page second section of your next appraisal.

HOPEFUL: (October 15, 2009 8:12am)

TRUTHFUL APPRAISER - finally an honest man. I'll say it again, NO ONE IS SHOPPING VALUE from an appraiser by asking for an initial idea if the sales value makes sense. They are looking to see if it makes sense for them to get involved in a transaction that can only cost them money & time. If looking at the numbers to see if a deal seems reasonable is against USPAP then that's another glaring example of why the only people who espouse USPAP are the appraisers that want to excuse their shoddy work. In every case in the real world that I've been spouted USPAP regulations it has been a poor appraisal done by a poor appraiser trying to justify why it made sense to them to spend the time on the phone justifying their work rather than actually going out and doing their work. And in every case another appraiser always used different data and got a different value. It seems the appraisers who want to do the appraisal no matter what

Sniper: (October 15, 2009 8:12am)

Frank -- Of course they like you. You sent them busniess, they either didn't understand that what they were doing was against the law, or didn't care, and you all won because you got your deal closed. YOU REALLY NEED TO SIT DOWN WITH AN APPRAISER TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS WRONG!

Financial Advisor: (October 15, 2009 8:10am)

Here is an idea. Why don't they treat everyone (lenders and appraisers) the same. NO C.O.D's! Lenders will work diligently(spending usually a month and half on average) providing the Borrower/Comsumer the best product to fit their needs. Covering all the costs needed to generate a viable loan product, and ONLY GET PAID WHEN TH E LOAN FUNDS! And have the Appraiser's due the same...Work diligently provide a accurate and viable Appraisal and getting PAID ONCE THE LOAN FUNDS! Sounds fair! The problem is HVCC does not reward Appraisers for doing a good and accurate job. HVCC has pushed Good Independent Appraisers out of the Industry and pickup the Appraisers, who perform subpar work and rewards them for it. Rewarding opportunists to create AMC (Appraisal Management Companies)and gouging the Borrower/Comsumer and raping the Appraiser with higher fees and no added benefit to either. Why has not any of the other Financial Industries been pushed to do the same as the Mortgage Industry???Hmm, Hmmm...Maybe because they have a stronger voice in the right places of Government.

Lender Dude: (October 15, 2009 8:10am)

The appraiser who believes HVCC is great is so full of it! Most appraisers I deal with have already suffered dramactically by way of income with HVCC. So many of the lenders are sucking off 50% of the appraisal fees leaving the appraiser with just enough money to cover his gas and some of his time. I actually had Provident tell me that their appraisal fees were in line with all lenders, yet of the 15 lenders I deal with Provident runs $75 to $100 higher than any of them, yet their appraiser only gets 40% of the fee! OUCH! HVCC has only benefited the lenders not the comsumers.

HOPEFUL: (October 15, 2009 8:09am)

TRUTHFUL APPRAISER - finally an honest man. I'll say it again, NO ONE IS SHOPPING VALUE from an appraiser by asking for an initial idea if the sales value makes sense. They are looking to see if it makes sense for them to get involved in a transaction that can only cost them money & time. It's like St Pauly Girl's analogy of paying a car mechanic upfront to see if he can find the problem and fix it. You might pay him a diagnostic fee to look at the car to see if it can be fixed, but you're not going to pay him the whole price on the off chance he can do it. If looking at the numbers to see if a deal seems reasonable is against USPAP then that's another glaring example of why the only people who espouse USPAP are the appraisers that want to excuse their shoddy work. In every case in the real world that I've been spouted USPAP regulations it has been a poor appraisal done by a poor appraiser trying to justify why it made sense to them to spend the time on the phone justifying their work rather than actually going out and doing their work. And in every case another appraiser always used different data and got a different value.

Frank @ TBWS: (October 15, 2009 8:09am)

Hey Old Dog you're crazy. I don't think anyone in the business would simply pick up the phone book and start dialing for appraisers - please how stupid is that? The majority of loan officers have a hand full of QUALITY appraisers in their area that they call. Come on... I'd never give an order to someone that I didn't know like and trust - Never. But I would call a few that I know like and trust for their opinion... So I guess we are all a bunch of scum then. Oh well. It's weird though... I've had wonderful relationships with many appraisers over the years and they sure seemed to like me. Guess I was wrong. Based on what I'm hearing on this subject here on this blog, deep down inside they must have hated my guts and thought I was scum.. do you guys go to some sort of acting class to develop that skill as part of your continuing education or something? Cause man.. they all really did seem to like me, and I did call them from time to time asking their opinion. So weird.

EdC: (October 15, 2009 8:09am)

There is nothing wrong with shopping around for experience or price. If they're shopping strictly for value then that is a problem. USPAP and ethics - you can't legislate morality into someone. If they're unscrupulous MB's or lenders they work with unscrupulous appraisers. You can't do anything about it except report them or hope they get caught. About giving a value range or simply saying yes, that figure could work, is an appraisal and was instituted in an attempt to legislate morality. Practically it makes no sense. Professionals from all walks of life give out their opinions for free - it's good customer relations and leads to opportunities for them or they wouldn't be doing it. It's a half-hearted attempt to stop fraud. It's pracically useless. Frank - it's almost like they hate brokers so much they hate amc's less. These aren't independent appraisers, they're appraisers that didn't have the skills or experience to make it on their own and now have a windfall due to the HAVOCC. They are not representative of professionals in this trade - as is obvious from their posts. Thanks, btw

bosefus: (October 15, 2009 8:07am)

All you mtg brokers, are you willing to break the law, lose your license/livelihood, pay huge fines, and possibly go to jail, to "help" your poor consumer get a loan...and risk everything for $300 (well, now more like $150-$200 now)... That is what you are asking others to do EVERY time you want a "comp check".... think about it. It is NOT the appraiser that made the laws, but they are the ones who get prosecuted severely every day because of it........Also, HOPEFUL, next time you take (or teach I doubt) an appraisal class, try to stay awake, because you have NO CLUE.

ExAppraiser-NowLending: (October 15, 2009 8:07am)

Can an appraiser please translate this blurb I found on AppraisersForum.com (link: http://appraisersforum.com/showthread.php?t=86561 ) regarding Advisory Opinion 19 in regards to "Unacceptable Assignment Conditions in Real Property Appraisal Assignments." There's a section that discusses comp checks, and I noticed it talking about a "competent appraiser" that can remain in USPAP Compliance while still able to "provide an economic and competitive service." Here's the excerpt: "If an appraiser is asked whether a specific property has a value (a point, a range, or a relationship to some benchmark), that request is for an opinion of value (an appraisal). Appraisers, obligated to comply with USPAP, must develop a real property appraisal in accordance with STANDARD 1. Communicating that value opinion must be accomplished in accordance with STANDARD 2. Appraisers, like other professionals, must ensure that those who use their services recognize the amount of work required—and the expertise needed—to develop a credible value conclusion about a property. However, this does not mean that the appraiser cannot provide an economic and competitive service. Indeed, the Uniform Standards of Professional Appraisal Practice recognize the need for different kinds of appraisals. A competent appraiser can vary the scope of work in an assignment, in accordance with the purpose and intended use of the appraiser’s opinions and conclusions in the assignment, and remain in compliance with USPAP. (See Statement 7 (SMT-7), particularly the Scope of Work and Levels of Reliability sections, and Advisory Opinion AO-15, particularly the The Appraisal Assignment and Using the Departure Rule sections.)" I agree that a "competent appraiser can vary the scope of work in an assignment, in accordance with the purpose and intended use of the appraiser’s opinions and conclusions in the assignment, and remain in compliance with USPAP." Sounds like a comp check that's in compliance.

BillC: (October 15, 2009 8:05am)

I have been a realtor for many years and like most realtor can't understand why the appraiser needs a contract to do an appraisal. Give me the Honest Value! That's all I ask. Someone enlighten me on this nonsense.

SoCal Appraising: (October 15, 2009 8:04am)

You know this is one horrible thing about the internet. People think they can spout off about anything with no repercussion. If everyone of us had to face the person I think some of the inflammatory talk would decrease significantly and we could actually discuss what was said. Frank - Whether you wanted the "point" to be about being called scum or not, as soon as you said you actively try to get appraisers to violate their licenses and government regulations you made that the point. I'm willing to give you a range of comps based upon the data you've given me. A *RANGE* mind you. But I will invoke an extraordinary assumption that this is based upon the facts you've given me and if anything is incorrect and/or missing I reserve the right to change it. (BTW appraisers, extraordinary assumptions are your friends in these cases). But it's a range Frank. I'll never tell you I can hit a value.

DM-CT: (October 15, 2009 8:04am)

Comments : First of all...to "LL " I agree! We appraisers are the LOWEST paid in the transaction, but the MOST liable for it! What gives!!????? Appraisers need to stop undercutting and start setting some higher price standards. I have not lowered my prices since this whole HVCC BULL@#!*, and I don't intend to. I had no problem communicating with any of my lenders in the past. NOW, we are at the MERCY of AMC's that have NO regulation. MY mom can open one of these and just get in touch with all my past lenders.......Hey, not a bad idea, HUH? I think I'll give "Mom" a call. She's probably as qualified as any of these other AMC's. It's slave labor for the most part, and I am tired of getting the bottom scrapings from loan deals! So what do you say, LL? Should we start this revolution? I'm on your side.

Sniper: (October 15, 2009 8:01am)

Frank- YOU REALLY NEED TO SIT DOWN WITH AN APPRAISER TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON. Much of what you say is accurate and nothing is wrong with it. The only problem is that you keep going down the fraud road. I know you don't want to sit in federal prison, so you think an appraiser does? I would be happy to take the time to call you and walk you through the regs, so you have a better understanding. I might even do it for no fee :)

Frank @ TBWS: (October 15, 2009 7:58am)

What's tripping me out here is that the appraisers that are unhappy about what we said, if you think about it, really, HVCC sort of works for them. I guess their only REAL problem with HVCC is the reduced income and lack of orders. But without HVCC you could develop relationships with brokers and realtors that could feed you business based on your performance (which has noting to do with getting value all the time, it stuff like, working hard, showing up on time, and being good at what you do) and you could charge your going rate for the work. Only problem here guys is that from time to time we WILL call and ask your opinion of value before we place an order to at least see if a deal is at all feasible. So... what do you want from us? I don't get it. I'm very confused here, really I am. Do you want HVCC to be removed so you can cultivate your business the traditional way, or do you only want AMC's to give you more orders and more money? What is it?

Old Dog: (October 15, 2009 7:58am)

You guys are so off base. Yes two opinions are better than one and not necessarily the same. Nothing wrong with getting two appraisal reports. However, when you SHOP for an appraiser by trying to get a value before the research is done, that is a violation of USPAP and just not good for anyone in the transaction. Your "shopping" should be for an appraiser who knows the area market, has a good reputation for integrity and experience and continues to educate himself/herself. Obviously you did not attend Brian Klemmer's seminars or read his book or even listen to his message yesterday. For every action you must know that there is a price to be paid. If you shop for a value instead of shopping for a qualified appraiser, you run the risk of "getting what you want" from an appraiser willing to give up their integrity to satisfy you and get paid. Now how does that help or protect the property owner or the lender? I'm amazed at your lack of thought and integrity with this opinion of yours. I hate HVCC, but it's opinions like yours and those actions of "shopping" that created this mess that we now have to live with. It's the "price" Brian is talking about and now we all have to pay it. While you are at it, go back and read Mad1218...he's got your number.

BIGBOH: (October 15, 2009 7:57am)

THEN ORDER 3 APPRAISALS FOR EACH DEAL, WE DONT MIND AS APPRAISERS WHO WILL BE GETTING PAID FOR THEIR OPINION.

Ex full time Realtor in Florida: (October 15, 2009 7:56am)

I find LL in Ma's comment kind of funny. Us licensed Realtors work for free every day! When we go out on a listing appointment and do a CMA we don't get paid and if they don't choose us they use our information. I know there are alot of good appraisers out there, but there were alot of bad. Here in Florida there was major collusion between the appraisers, builders and the lending arms the builders created. As prices rose and an appraiser couldn't reach value they just went to another who would, and they did. I know there needs to be more oversight, but what exists now is not the answer!

BIGBOH: (October 15, 2009 7:56am)

THE APPRAISER GETS PAID REGARDLESS B/C ITS UNLAWFUL TO BE PAID CONTINGENT ON A DEAL.

UtahsMOrtgageGuy: (October 15, 2009 7:55am)

So to all the MADDDD appraisers. If your values are always so perfect, and it is just absurd that anyone would ask for a second opinion PERIOD!!! Then why does every lender in the industry currently review appraisals on a daily basis??? Lets get real here I gaurantee I could order 3 appraisals on any given day and get 3 completly different values. I would Bet $1000 on it!!! Any takers?

HOPEFUL: (October 15, 2009 7:54am)

It's not the Lenders that don't understand, it's the appraiers. The difference in opinion comes down to $$$. The appraiser gets paid regardless of if the deal closes, the lender doesn't get paid until or unless the deal closes so we can't afford to get into a deal that is doomed from the start. And I have taken and taught multiple appraisal courses.

BIGDOH: (October 15, 2009 7:54am)

AN OPINION OF VALUE CAN BE CONSIDERED A "RANGE OF NUMBERS". AGAIN BROKERS AND REALTORS, READ USPAP AND THE REGULATIONS.

StarvedAppraiser: (October 15, 2009 7:52am)

USPAP is a joke!!! It doesn't HELP any Appraiser~it is another form of control that burdens Appraisers......furthermore, regarding APPRAISAL FEES: there should be a law AGAINST the AMCs paying ANYTHING LESS THAN $300.00!!! They are who needs to be REGULATED!!!!!!

Vincent Scuncio: (October 15, 2009 7:50am)

United we stand, divided we fall. I think everyone is so busy pointing fingers at one another that we are forgetting that Brokers NEED appraisers and Appraisers NEED Brokers. Yes, I have had deals killed by low appriasals, but I have also had deals go BIG by high appraisals. Have I asked an opinion of value BEFORE the appraiser goes out? Yep and I will do it again. Its called everyone working for the same goal. But I dont ask for an exact value, there is no way it can be done, but I do ask for a range. Funny thing is I can get a Range from my Realtors as well. SO stop all the BS bashing one another. If we fight each other long enough we will lose the war and not even know it. And I am not afraid to give my real name because I stand for what I believe.

Sunny: (October 15, 2009 7:45am)

Guys. lighten-up. Focus on the future and stop bashing the past. We all live in glass houses so stop throwing stones... Did you hear?? This Breaking News - - Obama wins the Heisman Trophy after watching a college football game!!!

HOPEFUL: (October 15, 2009 7:44am)

I can't speak for everyone, but as a lender if I thought there would be a problem getting value on a deal I'd ask the appraiser before he ever began the job. Why? Cuz you'd think the appraiser would know more than we would right? If he said NO WAY JOSE! Then I'd go back to the Realtor (it seems there was always a Realtor in those transactions) and tell them that value may be tight and then ask what everyone's position was on it. If we heard everyone was reasonable, or they wrote the contract high just to see what would happen or anything positive we'd begin. If we found out the Seller was a turd then we knew there was no reason to get in the middle of that mess so we'd pass on the loan. It's a service a good appraiser provides. It's no different than a Lender prequalifying a borrower before taking a loan application. It's also one of those little extra services the good appraisers provided (sometimes even sending us a quickie MLS sales run to give us ammo to try to get the people involved used to the idea) and it generated good will and future business. If you truly are concerned about being shopped then like Frank said, get behind the HVCC bandwagon. You can't have it both ways guys

LL IN MA: (October 15, 2009 7:40am)

IF APPRAISERS HAD A PAIR, THEY WOULD CHARGE $1000/DEAL. WHO'S GOING TO REPLACE THEM? I WOULD CHARGE BRIAN AND FRANK $1500 B/C I ALREADY KNOW THEY ARE COMP SHOPPING, AND TAKING MY BEST COMPS TO SOMEBODY WITH THE THIRD BEST COMP. HOW BOUT IT APPRAISERS, $1000/POP? NOBODY ELSE WORKS FOR FREE, WHY SHOULD WE?

Central Valley: (October 15, 2009 7:38am)

Brian TBWS - This is probably going to get me shot but, I don't think you are necessarily wrong. I understand your reasoning however, we, as appraisers, are Federally Governed by USPAP and it clearly states that it is unlawful. I would like to help you but, I can't risk my license/livelihood by doing so. Did you know that a violation of USPAP can be considered a felony?

Mad1218: (October 15, 2009 7:35am)

Frank, What's 'funny' about all of this is your attitude (along with the factually challenged Big Mike and the ironically named 'Nuke'em til they Glow'). You spend every day bashing the government, complaining about Washington and bitching about how stupid everybody else is. It's like you think our industry was this poor innocent victim of the system. We never did anything wrong and we should be left alone to do as we please and then everything will be OK. And then you show your true colors and endorse the crappy way many brokers have done business through the years. And you wonder why people don't trust you. So next time you want to bitch about the government you may want to ask yourself why they're over-reacting now and what role you played in it.

PennStLion: (October 15, 2009 7:35am)

As an outside source looking in, if USPAP is the long arm of the law and any "opinion" is a responsibility to the appraiser- then sorry brokers and realtors, appraisers are correct in this argument. Your violating the law and putting appraisers in jeopardy. Appraisers, tell these guys who are comp shopping to take a hike, or ban together and form some from of governing body for these types. If they can do it to you, turn the tables and do it to them. I'm against the HVCC, but anybody who can read and interpret the law will side with the appraiser.

HOPEFUL: (October 15, 2009 7:35am)

How do I get a job at one of these new agencies?

Old Timer: (October 15, 2009 7:34am)

WOW...NEW LISTENER, nicely said... As an appraiser with 20+ years and some old time clients, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I respect your comments and wish all mtg professionals were on your track...

someone help: (October 15, 2009 7:31am)

someone please get rid of this hvcc

LO : (October 15, 2009 7:31am)

I am a 16 year loan officer and have all the right intentions for my customer. As the property values have dropped and changed on a daily basis I would really like to know why a comp check is such a bad thing? When a customer approaches me I do my due dillegence with no cost to make sure the loan works for the customer. This process includes verifying income, asseets, credit and liens on the house. If someone feels their credit may be border line I do a credit check to see, this is a work for me and on a purchase that may not close for a few months this credit report will be outdated, I may need another. At any rate, to get to the point of pre-approving someone I have done my work and have not charged them any cost. Why? It's the right thing to do. Now on a fefinance, if the custoemr isn't sure about their value I would love to be able to do a comp check prior to paying for a full appraisal. I'm not looking for a specific value, just for the range of sale prices for similar houses. This process takes an appraiser much less time than I have already vested in the process. The comp check isn't ment to be specific nor to pre-determine value, it is to see what the range of sales is on this property. If the range is low, I can then save my borrower hundreds of dollars which is to their benefit. I also understand that after the comp check new sales may pop up which will affect the value, this is acceptable. If the range is border line I can then advise my borrower that moving forward is at their discretion and let them determine if they want to spend the money. If a comp check comes in low the appraiser loses one order but my customer saves, in this economy the extra money in their pocket is a good thing. By the time I get to doing a comp check I usually have 3-4 hours vested in the file and it's all been for free. The biggest complaint I hear from appraisers is they don't get paid for doing them, shouldn't you look at this as a positive thing if you are helping someone out? My biggest thing is I never ask an appraiser to hit a value nor do I suggest a value on a comp check. It is to get a value range of comparables. If I had access to the MLS I could check this on my own. Running a comp check isn't telling an appraiser value it is to save the customer a cost. If an appraiser and mortgage company have a realtionship that the appraier doesn't mind providing this service and it is done properly I cannot see the harm. It is in the best interest of the consumer.

yankeeboy: (October 15, 2009 7:29am)

too bad we can not use zillow- they seem to have the value we need! Obama's 4400 new HUD job's is part of the saving or creating 3 million jobs- not including military recruiting- those numbers will be next for the big O

SD : (October 15, 2009 7:25am)

If you want a separate opinion and its up to an appraiser to get it, then PAY for the opinion. Unlike shopping for rates, appraisers can only give opinions on on a range of comp checks, which REALLY they shouldnt be giving anyway. We just take for granted that they do. That in itself is a violation in California to OREA anyway.

know your facts before you speak...: (October 15, 2009 7:25am)

the problem is... the appraisers on this forum are stating that, per the GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS (USPAP), they can NOT give a pre-determined value, because that is AGAINST THE LAW that they are regulated by and they can and will lose their licenses for doing so, but the lenders/L.O/mtg brokers can't seem to understand this simple FACT. If you don't like the fact that the government prohibits "comp checks", do something to change the LAW, but at the least read and UNDERSTAND the laws that regulate the appraisal profession, I suggest you start with the ETHICS section of USPAP as a start.... there is nobody whining about shopping an appraiser for quality, integrity, professionalism, or knowing the market, and there is also no whining about questioning a "finished" appraisal or getting a 2nd opinion.

new listener, not sure yet!: (October 15, 2009 7:23am)

I'm a LO and I consider myself to be a very ethical person. All my business comes from referrals and I don't have to worry about shoppers. When you are very highly recomended by your Realtor partners or past clients, they aren't worried about rate... they are just hoping you have time to help them. It's a whole different type of business. I bring that up because you shouldn't be acting like shopping for rate is the way to go. You and I know if you call lenders looking for a certain rate quote, you'll get it... but will you still have it on closing day. Service and fees are more important. They can only get the best rate they qualify for... regardless of what they are told when shopping. It's the same for appraisals. There's no way for an appraiser to commit to a price until he's done the work. Don't get me wrong, I dislike the HVCC too, but not because I want to shop. It's because I know who the competent, honest, appraisers are in my area and I trust them. When I send an order for an appraisal, I trust their value because I've worked with them for years and know their competence. That's what I miss. We don't know who'd doing the appraisals now! Also worth noting, when you are comitted to an appraiser and give him lots of business all year long, he's less likely to mind taking a look at a refi deal before doing the full blown report, to make sure the client isn't wasting his money to find out values are way off. It's all about relationships and treating people fairly. As far as the difference in pay between LOs and appraisers, that's just ignorant. Appraisers work a day or so on a deal and can do a hundred a month. We work for months sometimes and don't do nearly the volume. No need to gloat over your few thousand dollars that you make.

Nuke 'em 'til they Glow: (October 15, 2009 7:23am)

Oh yeh That's all we need. More Government assistance. As Ronald Reagan said the words that strike terror in the heart of the American Citizen is "We're the government and we're here to help you."

Mountain Guy: (October 15, 2009 7:19am)

Heres one that might help some of you who are not Appraisers understand what you are taling about when it comes to differing values on the same property. Value can ONLY be presented as an opinion. Value cannot be presented as a statement of fact. Therefore it would be logical to assume that 2 Appraisers would almost always have differing numbers when it comes to the same property (even if they use the same Comparables). Some of the posters who do a good job of coming across as uneducated (read: unethical), keep throwing the word "value" around as though it is a static thing. Value is fluid and changes constantly. And to the appraisers who give good "customer service" by letting their clients know whether their "deals will work" before ever setting foot inside the property, you are part of the problem and I suspect you be hard pressed to provide a reliable opinon of value were it not for your clients helping you along by giving you an idea of what the value of the Subject property is "supposed to be". Please, either learn the ethics guidelines you are required to follow, or please get out of the business and leave it to the true professionals. Thanks.

Lender: (October 15, 2009 7:19am)

The video was great guys, I'm glad to see you carry on to get your point across to these whining and sniveling minuscule appraisers on this website. I hope the one's who said they never would watch again hold true to their threat. I also know they wont unfortunately. They'll be the last one's blogging today, you'll see. They love this blame game, they obviously have pent up frustration from lock of social contact. I also hope they quit the business and then hang themselves with their tape measures. I can't believe some of these nonsense blogs from appraisers. I wish I could puke on your shoes this morning for you.

Sniper: (October 15, 2009 7:18am)

Chuck-in response to your last post yesterday...You and all the c----y unprofessional box checker appraisers out there. It's not about what is NOT in USPAP, but what is IN USPAP. Appraisers just don't get it; they don't have a clue how much power they have. Instead of working together as professionals and using that power, they fight between themselves to see who can be the fastest to cut their fees, do free work, and degrade the profession. Yes, all those who prostitute them selves by kissing the a-- of brokers/lenders/agents/AMCs who simply don't care about you, and only care about getting thier deal closed and letting you have all the liability. In the meantime, you don't do quality work, you don't understand USPAP, and you willing show your lack of ethics. I can't take all of you out, but I can take some out one at a time and do my job to bring some profesiionalism back to the industry. Thanks for the new buisness model! See you in court!

DD in NH: (October 15, 2009 7:07am)

Another good example of appraisers going low to stay on the lender's list. Just had an appraisal come in at $475,000. 3 comps sold for $512,500/$500,000 and $575,000. Adjusted down to $523,500/$473,500 and $556,400. The lowest comp was the worst of the 3 due to it being on a major thruway so the road was very busy....and thus the lower value! I explained this as well a many other factors affecting this comp and the appraisal was adjusted up to $523,000 from $475,000 by the appraiser!! This was the only appraisal out of 5 for me that has been adjusted since HVCC. The other 4 deals died a horrible death!

EdC: (October 15, 2009 7:06am)

If I have car problems I can call a mechanic and get their free opinion over the phone by describing what's going on. And get a price to fix it. I can call a lawyer and get some free legal advice and a price on different scenarios. I can call plumbers and get free opinions on the best way to change some thing and the estimated costs. Same with dentists and doctors. Do they work for free? No. But they are willing to give their advice for free and if you like them you'll probably go to the one you called to take care of your problem. Any appraiser that;s been bitchin ever call and get free professional advice from anyone? Ohh, but appraisers here are above all that. Someone said only appraisers think appraisers are important. It appears some have overblown opinions of themselves. I can shop for the cheapest professional I can find or I can shop for the best. HVCC has taken away that choice - consumers have to take what the amc's give them. They pay for the best but end up with the cheapest. Brian and Frank are just telling it like it is. If there's an unscrupulous MB or lender/bank is looking to make value by calling around they will find an unscrupulous appraiser. Hopefully both will get caught. The best we can hope to do is provide good honest customer service and stand behind our work. They weren't suggesting they are unscrupulous, they were saying that different appraisers might know different areas better than the first appraiser they called. Maybe their 1st appraiser is unfamiliar with the subject market and doesn't think it will make value. The 3rd one they call knows the area as they just finished a similar property down the street and the value range is there if the property is as described. What bothers me is this killing the deal for a grand or 2. If it's a grand or 5 grand the banks lender is the one that can change the value depending on their risk. Why do they need it to hit the number? So they don't have to do any due diligence on it to assess their risk. I'm all for a range of value being expressed in the appraisal and let the bank assess their risk about "the number". But guess what, they don't.

Frank @ TBWS: (October 15, 2009 7:06am)

This is so funny. All the angry appraisers still missed the point. An appraiser called all lenders scum because they would ask the opinion of more than one appraiser if they "thought" that a value was attainable on a property. We merely said, that's kind of rude. Whether it's legal or not to ask, I don't know, I'm not an appraiser, but it sure made sense to me to ask, so we used to do it when we could talk directly to an appraiser. But the question is.... DOES THAT MAKE US ALL SCUM????? Man.. talk about missing the point. Trust me, the subject is officially dropped in my "opinion" and we'll move on to other things that hopefully we can all understand.

HVCCisBS: (October 15, 2009 7:05am)

HVCC ---- 1. our local appraisal fees went from $325 to national fees of $370. 2. I rarely get to work with the best appraiser in town, that I've worked with for 10 years. Now, HVCC randomly picks appraisers from out of town or ones that I view as sub-par. 3. in the old days.. if my appraiser called and said there was a problem with value. I never questioned him. And he was generous enough to cancel the order or only charge a small fee, because he was skilled enough to do his comp checks first without spending everyone's money. He was available to ask for comparables or value opinion pre-order. If a typo was made by him or an underwriter wanted an additional comp, I would recieve the correction or additional comp same day. It takes 3-4 days to get that stuff now with HVCC and it cost the borrower more money in extension fees. Even if you throw out the value argument, although it is a problem, Fees are higher and customer service and speed went out the window. This is bad for the consumer, small business. If you are an appraiser and you are in favor of HVCC because you no longer have brokers calling you, it's because you suck! I never called my favorite appraiser, because he is awesome. And he's the one that got 95% of my business. Not because he gave me the value I wanted, because he did a great job and was available and was fair. If he said it didn't appraise, then I believed him and told the borrower or realtor that there was a problem. Other sub-par appraisers.. yes I would question or go to another appraiser, because they gave me crap everytime their appraisal was questioned or an UW asked for more comps. Is that you? Do the job right the first time and people won't call you.

MrMortgageLoan: (October 15, 2009 6:50am)

ok... let's be honest here... in the last few weeks since they changed the ending song to a hillbilly with a Jewish harp... how many of you have that stuipd song stuck in your head and sing it a dozen times a day? I will raise my hand first. <g>

OHBroker: (October 15, 2009 6:50am)

Wow! I'm rather enjoying the banter that Frank & Brian have started. I'm no veteran and not a nubbie with just 11 years in the industry. I agree with appraisers that they should not be called ahead of time and asked for comps. You're just setting yourself, the appraiser and your client up for stress, wrong doing and/or legal expenses. We, as professional loan originators, spend a lot of time learning all the rules and regs. So why not learn to use all the online real estate sites to get an idea on values in an area that you are not familiar with? Provide your client with that info and let them decide if they want to shell out the money? As for HVCC, it is definitely the wrong answer. Not only have I had low values, but I have had crazy high values from incompetent appraisers as well (which the lender tossed out and would not even let me order a new appraisal). I have tried to prove to the AMCs that they have a bad apple (or two...), but they will not here of it. Shoping independent appraisers is not about upfront values, it is about quality that you can count on. I have no problem calling a client to tell them that their house is not worth a value when I know I have a competent appraiser who realistically supports that value. Each industry just needs to regulate their own and let those of us that are ethical do what we do best.

Way2Lucky: (October 15, 2009 6:47am)

Why can't we all just get along? Frank and Brian, I am right with you on appraisers opinions, we are all in this together, and no two appraisers will have the same value on the same property! None of us are looking to have a value pushed illegally, but if a doctor tells you that you need surgery, do you get a second opinion? You bet you do! HVCC is slowing down the industry, hurting originators, appraisers, realtors and everyone else involved in the business. Keep up the good work and thanks for the kudos DAG!

ne appraiser: (October 15, 2009 6:47am)

Rondon: (October 15, 2009 5:55am) How many of you appraisers lower the value for fear of being sued? Be honest now.........How about getting bumped off an list like flagstar of chase? Get a bad review because the reviewer is coming in low to save his hide, then wham your off the list.. Rodon.. it happens all the time ..

ne appraiser: (October 15, 2009 6:42am)

Rondon--- Im in! Where do I sign up

Big Willie Style: (October 15, 2009 6:41am)

Completely agree with Frank and Brian. Everyone knows that if you get multiple appraisals, that each one of those appraisers will have come up with a slightly different number!

Motown Mortgage: (October 15, 2009 6:41am)

I can't seem to find a link to one of those community action websites which automatically sends a form letter to your congress representative demanding an extension to the tax credit, once you input your address. Does anyone have that URL? Thank you!

Mortgage Girl: (October 15, 2009 6:21am)

Amen, St. Pauly Girl! I am reading this blog this morning and it's just making me sick. Let's get back on the same team and back to the business at hand. C'Mon guys! All this name calling and back and forth helps no one. HVCC has hurt us all - and I do mean ALL (lenders, appraisers, customers). It needs to go.

Rondon: (October 15, 2009 6:19am)

Hey Anonymous - I agree. Will you join me in calling for a new regulation - let's call it LOSER - the Loan Officer Society for Equal Rates. This will be great. We'll set up 3rd party management companies called RATs - Rate Assignment Teams. All prospective borrowers must call RATs to start the loan process. Everyone gets the same rate! All loan officers will be on a round robin. If you go out and get your own loan, you'll lose your license, just to make it fair. So now, we can just sit on our ass and wait for RATs to call us and assign our next loan. Of course the rates will be higher for the borrower to pay for the added bureaucracy, but borrowers are getting used to higher costs - shouldn't be a problem. Who's with me?

Sniper: (October 15, 2009 6:14am)

You don't want the sharpest according to your statement. You don't want a second opinion according your statements. You want the appraiser who will give you free work, violate the law, and hopefully appraise to a predetermined value. Therefore, you want the dullest appraiser in the barrel. Face it guys, you got caught displaying your true intentions, ignorance, and you are correct, we are competitive. So, you are fired!

Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 6:12am)

Instead of Prison time for Mortgage Brokers who wants to promote illegal practices, just lock up in a room with a USAP book.

empmon: (October 15, 2009 6:04am)

Have we all figures out why Chase is making money? They raised their credit card rates by 5.66% - at least - on those of us with credit scores OVER 800! Thanks, J.P! Hope you're rolling in your grave.

joecolorado: (October 15, 2009 5:59am)

didnt realize appraisers are such delicate petals......I must be different...get some cajones(sic) for goodness sake...if you dont like the modus operandi of a lender. dont work for them...They are easy to spot...they are the ones that pressure you for a figure.....stop blaming everyone else for US allowing or industry to be totally screwed up. WE need to rectify this problem by doing appraisals that are defensible, dont blame Frank for doing what is best for his client, even though it may be illegal....who knows...just don't associate youself with a client that has an issue with our regulations....they dont apply to him....he has his own set of regs to deal with. HVCC is not going away...learn to adapt...make it work for you and your company,if you are not strong enough to say no, it helps, if you are strong enough it reinforces what you have been saying all along and dont be shy about reporting these idiots that have brought our profession into direpute. The State loves to hear from good appraisers, and lets face it will keep them busy, otherwise they may think of something else to screw up a perfectly good occupation.

Anonymous: (October 15, 2009 5:58am)

Did scumbag lenders stretch value or was it scumbag appraisers? Me personally I don't remeber the last Mortgage Broker I called to order an appraisal on one of my loans maybe things work different in your state. Why is the solution to allow incompetent appraisers full access and unregulated ability to screwing the borrower? As an appraiser are you really trying to maintain the position that AMC's are hiring only qualified, experienced, and reputable appraisers, not a very tenable position if you are. As a broker I would never try to say there aren't incompetent or scumbag Brokers. Borrower's are allowed free access to shop brokers looking for the right one just for that reason. HVCC prevents the same standards with appraisers. Your competentcy or incompetentcy is irrelevant your opinion now becomes the only opinion. I see why appraisers love HVCC they get paid even if they decide to work half as hard. I support something similar to HVCC for Mortgage Brokers once a borrower signs there is no shopping you take what we give you, WHO'S WITH ME? Just in case your not the most intelligent let me point out I was employing a little literary tool called irony and sarcasm.

Rondon: (October 15, 2009 5:55am)

And if you're an appraiser who likes HVCC, it might be because you have no balls. How many of you appraisers lower the value for fear of being sued? Be honest now...

Ancient Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 5:52am)

Over the years there have been times that I looked up neighborhood values for Brokers to advise them they were out of their mind or had a tinkers chance of making a value. With consideration for USPAP I created a work file and limited my valuation to providing comparable sales with a caveat that the range (I let the brokers determine their own) was dependent on the condition of the improvements which would not be known prior to inspection. This process was not completed for any Broker that called but many I worked with over the years. It was a working relationship that kept me associated with several firms for more than twenty years. As for Brian and Frank ? Isn't the whole argument here that everyone has an opinion ? This forum has helped us a great deal and now all Appraisers all of a sudden want to Revolt because Frank and Brian suggested shopping appraisers. Evidently a number of Appraisers "opinions" are impacted by the thickness of their rectal walls !

Rondon: (October 15, 2009 5:48am)

HVCC is perfect for new and lazy appraisers. Just add your name to the list and the business rolls in. And no more worries about a "scumbag" loan officer questioning value, despite the fact that the appraiser may have gotten a bath/room count wrong, or they did not consider a recent FSBO comp. How many appraisers only look at MLS when researching comps?

Jersey Girl: (October 15, 2009 5:47am)

Mark L: Appraisers are required to review the contract for a purchase...plain and simple. We don't make the rules...

Big Tex: (October 15, 2009 5:45am)

Hey Guys, if a doctor said he was going to amputate your leg because in his opinion you needed it...... would you seek a second opinion? Of course you would... an appraisal is nothing more than one persons.. subjective opinion. When you purchase a car... do you shop for the deal that is right for you? Of course you do.. an appraisal is one persons subjective opinion. Feel free to consider all of the possiblities

Miek Pinter: (October 15, 2009 5:43am)

MarkL, Fantastic queston: Why should the contract price influence the appraiser's opinion when we can't have any influence on a refinance?

Apprasier: (October 15, 2009 5:42am)

You know the bottom line here is that the two guys running this site out of their garage have been practicing lending this way, they have shopped appraisers and looked for value and if they have looked/shopped for value they are the type of lenders who have put us into the situation we are in, now they are begging appraisers to help them get it back to the way it was so they can continue to shop/pressure appraisers to HIT A VALUE so they can line their pockets with some clients money "hey I am just doing my job by trying to get my client so far upside down that on this loan, but hey if I don't screw him someone down the street will" I am done with this site and I am done with these two clowns how spew garbage. I can believe it but I believe I am now in favor of the HVCC. Thanks Frank and Perry for showing us your true colors and proving what SCUM some lenders are.

NJ Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 5:38am)

Mark, Have you ever read an appraisal? Page ONE? It asks us if we viewed the contract (in the case of a purchase). Not every deal is a typical arms-length transaction. Why are we asked to so throughly check listing and selling prices for 3 years for the subject? Why don't we just say...heck it's worth whatever the borrower and the loan officer wants and needs to do the deal. Of corse we all knew you would respond with you had deals to do...people to see...MAYBE IT IRRITATES YOU THAT ALL US APPRAISERS ARE SITTING HERE IN OUT PJ'S????

Big Mike: (October 15, 2009 5:36am)

Good Job Frank and Brian. If you want to be "activest" remember this. If you ain't pissing them off, they ain't listening. If they ain't listening you are spinnig your wheels. You just pissed off a bunch of appraiser that's for sure.

AppraiserGuy: (October 15, 2009 5:36am)

Steve & Brian, You Guy Show has been inspiration in hopes to stop the HVCC. I have watched your show religiously. But your approach on attaining value is DEAD wrong. You are asking appraisers the give you predetermine value on FEW thousands of dollars. That is imposable or illegal task in our industry, there is no in between. Without completing an appraisal assignment the appraiser is putting his license and career on the line! Would you put your career on the line for a few hundred of dollars? It sure would be nice to see your industry to implement similar guideline as USAP instead of the HVCC. Then you would think twice before asking an appraiser for a predetermine value.

bike2go: (October 15, 2009 5:32am)

Guys,did you leave off that Obama's new HUD agency is hiring 4400 unemployed ACORN councelors?

Mark L: (October 15, 2009 5:31am)

Hey - NJ appraiser - I actually have deals to work on! I cant spend my time crying about how unfair life is for the appraisers. In this case, the house that apraised for LESS, was the house that had the better upgrades! Go figure! I personally dont care what the appraised value is most of the time. For the most part, I beleive that the appraiser knows better than me or the client as to what the value is. But this HVCC is a bad thing for everyone involved. Why is it on Refi's, when the appraisal is ordered, we are not allowed to suggets an estimated value or tell you what the loan amount is? But on a purchase, you want to see the contract? If the value is based on your opinion, then why the need for the contract? Isnt that the same thing as suggesting a value?

joecolorado: (October 15, 2009 5:26am)

boy....I had to re-check I was on the TBWS web site.....If you give your opinion of value away to anyone on the phone, that constitutes an appraisal by an appraiser, but in addition that also makes you an idiot. STOP doing that......why would you give anyone anything for free when you WILL be held responsible for your opinion....as your opinion was requested in your appraisal capacity....EVERY governing body states that is not legal, why on earth would any appraiser put his/her livelihood on the line for an opportunity to get more work....There will ALWAYS be more work, maybe not enough to buy you that Lamborghini, but then again it would be stupid to drive to an appraisal in a Lambo anyway....The way I handle comp checks is initially to say no...then when they pressure me for an indication of value.... I say NO..... If they want an appraisal, I will gladly give them an appraisal, but nothing is free, EVERYTHING comes with a price and giving away a free, suspect appraisal, comes with a hefty price......so dont do it. For the two properties across the street from each other with different values......They are not identical, for starters they are across the street from each other.....there is a difference...additionally I would be upset if the two values DID come in identical, it smacks of collusion and fixing, so be happy there are at least two appraisers that are not infuenced by outside infuences in making the decision on a value. If you dont like Franks opinion, the simple answer is dont log on or dont listen to him...He is entitled to his opinion just as much as everyone else. If he is unethical or amoral regarding a service TO HIS CLIENTS, then HIS industry will punish him. My job as an appraiser is to estimate a defensible supportable value not to pontificate about the ethical obligations of a third party. If you dont like his way of working DONT WORK FOR HIM....its as easy as that. Let him worry about sleeping at night just make sure that your appraisals are defensible, independent and up to the usual very excellent standard that you pprovide for the fee you charge.... I do, and I sleep like a baby.

Mike Pinter: (October 15, 2009 5:26am)

There is no way any appraiser can convince me that giving a range of value with a preliminary look (before inspection) is a bad thing. How can that be bad? We're big boys, if the house turns out to be a mess and the value comes in below the range, we can take it. What's been going on lately (at least in the NYC area) is that appraisers are so afraid, they are coming way low and putting absurd comments in to cover their asses. Later when the investors give us twelve appraisal conditions, it can take weeks to get them all, if at all.

TD Hawk: (October 15, 2009 5:25am)

PUH-LEASE! Zig Ziglar's C.O.D. stands for what he's after, your cash when you hopefully order a book/disc. I'm not against this stuff if it inspires but I'm amused how these gurus package and re-package and never lack for demand. Treat other's honestly and the way you'd like to be treated and you'll be successful.

txappraiser: (October 15, 2009 5:24am)

Amazing... I've always welcomed being questioned. I stand by my report. That's not the point. As has been said by most every other appraiser today; any value given is an appraisal (per USPAP). I welcome being questioned on how I arrived at my final opinion of value. I just have a problem with someone wanting me to do my work up front and then decide whether I'm to be paid. In order to conform to USPAP, I'm supposed to have a workfile on any "appraisal" for which I am engaged. And back to being questioned on our values; I live with my value for 5 years. The state, FHA, FNMA, etc. can pull my file over the next 5 years and hold me responsible for every word, adjustment, and of course value.

Mortgage professional response to whinney appraisers: (October 15, 2009 5:24am)

Isn't competition part of our free democratic society? This is how Wal-mart took over retail right? I do remember Appraisers come begging me for my business with below market fees :I'll do your appraisals in 24 hours for $225..." Market price in Dallas Tx was $350, I stuck with my 6 year appraiser and when he went to $375.00 when gas was $4.00 a gallon I stuck with him again even though cut rate "appraisers" were still offering $200 appraisals. Yes, I did ask him for what the homeowner thought value was and every time I said "if the value is not there DO NOT stretch it and risk your license" If he told me no, I asked why and his answer was always the right one.

Big Mike: (October 15, 2009 5:22am)

Gents, What you discribe as shopping is not really what is going on in the real world. It is far more agressive than you have discribed. Most of time the Lender is/was asking for 20-50% more that would be remotely close to the truth. I do agree with you that appraisals are just an opinion and like rectums every one has one. I also agree that it is difficult to have 2 appraiser come up with the same exact opinion. Lets get real, to the starving guy who lets say is just starting out on his own, the temptation to be a whore is huge. Personally, after 22 years of being on the other side as an appraiser, I have heard so many types of arm twisting it's not even funny. HVCC is not the answer, I agree. As usual the powers that be took a problem and made 3 more and they are not done, trust me. The current bunch of clowns who have no morals and are running and ruining our once great country have to be short timers. Guys, here is the bottom line. You need to be, hell we all need to be, more politically involved. That means say what you mean, don't sugar coat it, and be forcefull. Personally, I don't take any crap from any leftest any more. I am polite about it, but forcefull to the point of pissing that group off so much they won't have anything to do with me, which is just fine. Remember Lee Iacoca (did spell that right) to all of his employess at Chrysler, "Either you are for me, or you are not". This is war, plane and simple, we should adopt the shoot the wounded policy, they will just make another run at us later.

St Pauly Girl: (October 15, 2009 5:21am)

NJ Appraiser makes a great point about timing of the job completion. Very similar to when clients shop me for a rate. Unless they are contacting and receiving the quote same day/time...comparisons aren't valid. On a side note, with the bashing of LOs, Appraisers, Realtors; I just want to remind everyone that it's a damn shame the new policies are trying to prevent us from being on the same team. The consumer loses as a result. For me to best advise clients on options, I need an understanding of sale data in the subject property neighborhood. While I don't have the option any longer to request 'comp checks' from appraisers; I'm now relying on my Realtors to pull a radius search of sales surrounding my subject property. I know this is no true indication of what an appraisal valuation may be; but isn't it wrong to expect a client to pay for appraisal when there no hope of coming close to a targeted value range to complete financing? Would you pay your auto mechanic $400 upfront to tell you maybe he/she will be able to find your cars problem & fix it...but maybe not? Silly, isn't it? Our clients are getting shafted & we are handcuffed from providing them with the service they deserve. We really should focus on a more united front to stop/reverse the industry changes that are hurting our clients and our businesses.

OldTimeAppraiserGirl: (October 15, 2009 5:20am)

I know my last comment was extremely long, but another thing to consider especially in this market. A loan officer asks for an value on 7/1/2009, then orders the appraisal on 8/31/2009. That's two months in a declining market. Hello!!!

HVCC: (October 15, 2009 5:20am)

Hey Appraisers, actually just the ones that are irritated with the two ding dongs hosting the show. Have you heard of HVCC? It is basically the system you have been wanting so you do not "waste time with scumbag brokers" who are trying to put a deal together. If you are an independant business you have to do a litte customer service to land a steady client. That doesn't mean creating false value. Being deemed the authority on the value of the subject propert does not mean the brokers should bow down to you, although we now have to bow down to the amcs. Now we can't even ask what is a potential value and should I tell the borrower not to waste $350? if this will not work. I think that used to be a good service that helped people save money and my appraisers would help in that situation for people who really could not afford to lose $350. How is that bad? I used appraisers that were honest and ethical and that's what I was looking for - a true opinion of value. Appraisers have told me that $1,000 up to 3,000 in value is within an acceptable range. Worse case I could cut fees to make the transaction work if the anticipated value is not there or have the customer bring in cash to closing if they have it. Every appraiser has his/her opinion on the value of a home as Brian states. This is why we use to have 2-3 reputable appraisers for Different areas. If different appraisers should not be allowed to have different values and opinions then why would we need appraisers in the first place? We could all use AVM's and do away with appraisers. Sounds like HVCC actually is the business model some of you have proposed and been longing for in order to eliminate any questions on value from the "scumbag brokers". To bad you are getting screwed like the rest of us.

OldTimeAppraiserGirl: (October 15, 2009 5:17am)

There are many factors to consider when appraising a home. Asking an appraiser to give a value prior to them actually seeing the home is extremely difficult. Sometimes it is as simple as the condition of the property, but other factors such as upgrades and curb appeal come into play. External obsolescence can also be a problem that may not be known until you get to a property. When someone asks for an value on a property BEFORE the appraiser actually sees the property is not considering all the aspects of valuing property. Condition for some people could be new kitchen appliances, while other homes have complete new kitchens including wood cabinets, granite counters, etc. Another area of questionability is the floorplan. Many homes have enclosed garages and/or enclosed poorches to create additional living area. Sometimes they are done professionally and really add value, but most times they create functional problems; i.e.: a rear porch has been enclosed to create an additional bedroom. There is a closet and it has been ducted for CHA. However, now there is no access to the rear yard unless you go through that bedroom. How would an appraiser know until he/she actually sees the property. Or, the owner tells the loan officer that the home is in "good condition", but the appraiser get to the house and it needs major work. Now the appraiser has told the loan officer that the value could be $200,000 but, because of the condition, it is more like $150,000. Is that loan officer going to understand that the appraiser is coming in low because he was not told the truth. No, he is going to say "BUT YOU SAID..." Also, there are appraisers that comp properties at the high end of the value range for look ups to get the order. Then they come in at a lower value. Shopping for loan rates is not the same as shopping for appraisal values. If a loan officer tells an applicant that current market rates are 5% and is basing that on a credit score of 750, but finds out later that the applicants credit score is only 600. That is cut and dry. There are no possible differences of opinions. A credit score is a credit score. Also, rates can change many times in just one day. The loan office always has an excuse why loan rates may not be what was quoted.

mortgagebrad: (October 15, 2009 5:11am)

I've read most of the blogs this morning and there are a lot of different views here. Two things: 1)HVCC changed how we do business. I'm in Indiana and have been a mortgage broker for 18 years. I've been very dismayed at times at the lack of knowledge of some the AMC's appraisers (I said some). It's not just about the value. It's the lack of the knowledge of the area in many cases and the lack of urgency to complete the appraisal in a timely manner. This adds time and can cause the borrower more money. Some appraisals came back fine and ahead of time. We cannot ask for an value opinion ahead of time. 2) There's no reason to bash Frank and Brian. They report it as they see it. They're delivery maybe a little quirky at times, but the message and information is still all relevent to what's happening in our industry as a whole at the time. Opinions vary in life and certainly in value of appraisals. Please tell me where there's another venue that is similar to this one. Anyone?

Amazing: (October 15, 2009 5:06am)

If you guys would put as much time into your appraisals as you do bashing Frank & Brian we would be good. This really is no different than a drug dealer VS user.. if you cut off the dealer/ appraiser the drug user/loan office has no where to go. So the appraiser/drug dealer is the problem. Right? I don't think we ahve licked the drug problem yet and I don't think you are going to lick this problem..there are always dihonest people...accept that fact and if you don't like me questioning your opinion because I don't share you beliefs then don't do business with me. I am not an appraiser and don't care what the value is but you should be able to defend and support your opinion and not be offended. If you can not talk about and support your opinion and feel good about it then you must be taking a consevative route just to be safe. I want an appraiser that does his job and gives an honest opinion..not hiding in the shadows because of the fear of being sued...

txappraiser: (October 15, 2009 5:02am)

I agree with "truthful appraiser"; I spent over 20 years building relationships with brokers and agents and didn't mind spending time checking neighborhood comps in order to help them be sure the value was based on sound data. To be told that being shopped is OK because values differ tells me that you (Frank & Brian) really don't understand the guidelines appraiser's have to follow. Go take a USPAP class and get to know what we (appraisers) are up against. I don't mind proving my worth to a broker with my turn-around time, appraisal fee, report quality, ability to communicate, etc. But to be shopped for VALUE??? I guess it's true... you guys just don't have a clue as to what an appraiser's role is in the loan process.

NJ Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 4:57am)

Here's another one... Were they done the exact day at the exact time? Comps were all identical too? Even the difference of one week might generate a closed sale that could make a difference.

Indy Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 4:56am)

Well, while you a regained some credibility among appraisers, you are still errant in one of your statements. Something to the effect that "you will have people calling to ask your opinion of value, that's just part of the business". Not, it is not!! USPAP states, that if a value or range of values is communicated by an appraisal professional, then that person has in fact performed an appraisal. Obviously at that point, the appraiser has not performed the necessary tasks to have gone through the steps necessary to have determined a well supported value. And again,even if it were legal, why should an appraiser give someone a value for free? We as appraisers perform a service and are not in a sales position as loan originators are. It simply comes down to the fact that we as appraisers are bound by USPAP. It is obviously not as enjoyable to read as one of Zig's books but, it might benefit you guys to take a look at it and then you would be able to speak about the appraisl world based on substance and not how some think that things should be done. Keep up the good work.

40K difference: (October 15, 2009 4:53am)

There is no such thing as identical houses, if a builder is offering the same floorplan does he sell every house for the same amount? NO, the interior upgrades can be significantly different base on value of upgrades which can easily have a 10% or more swing to value. Also with LOWES, Builder Square and such homeowners are always doing upgrades to their homes, so maybe one home was less upgrade than the other or maybe the people that lived in the house that valued for less were just pigs and had let the house deteriorate, how the hell is anyone here suppose to know the differences in your two houses to give you a rational explanation you mortgage lending moron?

Apex Appraisals, NC: (October 15, 2009 4:53am)

Guys, Shooping for a value from an appraiser is not legal. As an appraiser, giving you my opinion of value without taking the appropriate steps violates USPAP. The only legal was for me to give my opnion of value to to engage me with an assignment. If want to shop me and other appraiser for value and do it legaly, it would cost you an appraisal fee for each opinion, not cost efeective. Many States now have laws against pre-comping, because it creates a pre-determined value. I know you guys mean well and are fighting for the free market system. I am with you! But you can't ask me violate USPAP and possibily loose my license by giving you an opinion of value without the due process and a fee. I welcome the interview to determine my competence, experience, quality, and turn times.

Impatient: (October 15, 2009 4:52am)

His silence is deafening......

NJ Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 4:51am)

Hey Mark where are you? It's been 19 minutes? We are waiting for your answer....

Appraiser from CT: (October 15, 2009 4:46am)

I'm done with you. You two don't have a clue; you're the problem with the industry, clearly. I will no long watch, you’re out!

LL - MS Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 4:45am)

Thanks so much for clarifying, guys...I feel better lol. You're right, shopping is ok if in a honest, ethical environment. Also, it is beyond silly to kill a deal over a few 1,000 dollars (less than 1%). I love knowing the loan info bc I don't want to kill a deal over such small amounts bc there is a range in our development of value. Thanks again. :)

truthful appraiser: (October 15, 2009 4:44am)

As an appraiser I think I understand why a mortgage broker would want to know if a loan is in the ball park before completing a lot of paperwork. With my customers that send me business I was always willing to do a quick look at key indicators of value for a neighborhood and let them know if the neighborhood could support a value of x but I always let them know that it was neighborhood research only and the value for the subject could be different after I inspect it. Those customers came back time and again and I felt the extra work was value added because when I did my appraisals I did all the work needed to find the correct and best value that could be supported even if it went before the board. I was making good money before HVCC and did not feel I was violating USPAP. These customers had a relationship with me and trusted that when I came in low it was because that was the the case and still sent the next order. It was a matter of volume, I got enough orders to make it worth the wasted time looking at neighborhoods and because I work a selected area I could many times say you are wasting your time without even doing any work as I worked these neighborhoods every day. When a matter of $1000 was going to make or break a deal I would look at it again and see if I could do it because I am not soo egotistical to think I am so good that I can predict the market value down to the penny. Lets be reasonable, any appraiser I know will do this for "good" customers even though we get on our high horse and say we do not. the trick for brokers is to develop a working relationship with a couple of appraisers and not broadcast their orders so the same people that do the extra work for you are getting orders from you also. I get mad when I get calls for such work that got to 5 or 10 appraisers and they keep calling but don't send work. brokers, know your appraisers, trust their work and test them from time to time with other appraisers but understand they are helping you and need your support also.

USF Appraisals, LLC: (October 15, 2009 4:43am)

Hey Mark... maybe one appraiser really sucked. Is that what you wanted to hear? In the volatile market where I work (Phoenix metropolitan area), one appraiser might call a market declining whereas another appraiser could potentially call it stable - because we're definitely at a crossroads due to differences in inventory. If one appraiser makes negative time adjustments whereas the other appraiser doesn't, and they utilized the same comparable sales, there could potentially be a difference in value of 6.6%. That is right outside the magic 5% threshold. I'd be interested to see where the most similar lowest non-distress active listings are priced that are market tested (this would demonstrate if one appraiser was more aggressive or conservative than the other). So which appraisal report looked like the worst of the two appraisals? The lower value or the higher value? Curious.

NJ Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 4:36am)

Mark, Your amazing...Perfect example of the I want it all and I want it NOW. You post this after 19 minutes and it is in the 7am hour on the east coast Mark L.: (October 15, 2009 4:27am) I am still waiting on one of you appraisers to answer my question about how it is possible for two different appraisers tocome up with values that are $40,000 apart on identical houses across the street from ach other. The silence is deafening!

UT Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 4:36am)

Mark L: I agree with Jersey Girl. There are no shortage of poor appraisers out doing work and being insulated by the HVCC which one of the biggest problems currently. I have submitted a number of appraisals to the state licensing board to be reviewed because they were so poor in quality (and lately because they have clearly understated the value of the property being appraised). In your case you may have one good appraisal and one bad one, or there may be a number of minor differences in the houses that were appraised. On shopping appraisers I also agree with Jersey Girl. You don't really know what you are appraising until you have seen the property, researched the market and adjusted the sales. By then you have appraised the property. Wanting the number without paying for it is like shopping accountants wanting to know how much they can save you in taxes without wanting to pay them anything unless you like the anwwer adn without giving them all of the information they need to give you an accurate estimate of tax liability.

USF Appraisals, LLC: (October 15, 2009 4:34am)

Financially Mark, not jealous of the broker who makes his money (even the broker is putting some serious time into a loan before it funds). The way I look at it, things all even out in the end. I'm sure we both can sleep well at night. Go USF! Beat Cinci!

Is it true: (October 15, 2009 4:34am)

I have always been under the understanding that appraisal were always suppose to be ordered from a disinterested third party, is that a FIRREA rule? And every time you shop aren't you breaking that rule? Someone explain that if I have it wrong.

NJ Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 4:28am)

Nice try Marc L, it's a rarity that I find an IDENTICAL home. You can't be serious. Same size lot, same square footage, same condition, same amenities? One could be backed to a school, park, factory, or in a flood zone cause it backs a brook. There are reasons for differences and as an appraiser we do our very best to let the bank know what they are. That's our job. It's our opinion, but it's an educated opinion and we are PAID for it. Sorry if that bothers you or any loan officer. Frank & Brian...you can backpeddle and say you are in favor of independent appraisers but the horse has left the barn, we saw the way you discussed appraisals yesterday. I'll continue to watch because your site is informative which is something a good appraiser does (constantly educated themselves) but I've seen your true colors and I've taken you off the pedastal.

Jersey Girl: (October 15, 2009 4:28am)

WOW such harsh words so early in the morning already! Ouch! Mark L: I'd have to see both of those appraisals to comment on the differences. Are the houses exactly the same square footage, model, condition, and amenities (basement, garage, etc.)? Is one more updated than the other? Brian & Frank: I'm an appraiser and still love your show. :) But I know of an appraiser who gave their opinion before going to the property, and then when he finished the inspection, verified his data, and started typing the report - he couldn't support it. The LO was pretty ticked off...that is another reason why an appraiser should not try to determine value before going to the property.

Mark L.: (October 15, 2009 4:27am)

I am still waiting on one of you appraisers to answer my question about how it is possible for two different appraisers tocome up with values that are $40,000 apart on identical houses across the street from ach other. The silence is deafening!

Apprasier: (October 15, 2009 4:27am)

This is the problem with the internet, you (a broker) can get a webcam a spout off crap about things you don't really understand and everyone else (other brokers) think that your some kind of expert, when your just two idiots with a webcam.

USF Appraisals, LLC: (October 15, 2009 4:25am)

Mark... I have a degree in Finance. I spent 18 months training under a supervisor prior to obtaining my appraisal license. I waited another six months until I was certified. Prior to becoming an appraiser right after graduating from college, I spent three weeks in training to ascertain loan officer status with GE Capital (however, because they didn't want to call me a glorified telemarketer, we were called mortgage specialists). Did I personally know the difference between an ARM and my arm after that three weeks... Let's be serious. But boy... I could sell condoms to a nun on the phone. The problem... it took me two months to realize I really had to lack serious ethics to make a ton of cash (which is almost like the appraisal industry now the way appraisers have to prostitute other appraisers if you really want to make over $100K a year). When an LO can split the personal liability for a loan that goes bad three years or seven years down the road with an appraiser because we helped you get your deal by getting that extra "couple" thousand (what's the difference between a $1,000 - right Frank and Brian), come talk to me. Until then... you guys will always get defensive and say, "We didn't force him to appraise it that high". Just my two cents.

Mark L: (October 15, 2009 4:24am)

Dont listen to these guys, Steve & Brian. They are just jealous. How much can they possibly make on an appraisal? A few hundred dollars maybe? They are just ticked off that we loan officers and mortgage brokers make a few THOUSAND dollars!! Ha Ha Ha! How much would you appraisers have made over the years if it werent for us "scumbag" loan officers?

Scott D.: (October 15, 2009 4:15am)

I missed the fun entertaining ending today!

Mark L: (October 15, 2009 4:08am)

Here is an example of what they are talikng about. I have two clients in Verona, NJ wholive across the street from each other in identical houses. I am working on refi's for both of them. The appraisals were ordered through HVCC and were assigned to two different appraisers. One came in at $573,000 & the other at $535,000. Can one of you genius appraisers out there tell me how this is possible?

A Real Appraiser not a Mortgage Scum Bag.: (October 15, 2009 4:06am)

Getting shopped Brian is not ok! You're asking for an appraisal before you hire us. You just don't get it. In the past I've been told that they need a value and if I said I'm not sure I didn't get the assignment. I don't like HVCC, but guys like you fudgeed us over with your shopping for a value. You are Scum and you know it!

MarkL: (October 15, 2009 4:05am)

To all you appraisers out there complaining...the next time you need to refinance your home, just apply at some lender and dont ask him what the rate is going to be. Just go along with what his opinion of what a competitive rate is. No need to shop around!

A Certifed Appraiser & Frank & Brian Have no appraisal Education!: (October 15, 2009 3:58am)

You stated that appraisers might be asked what our opinion would be before we do the assignment. I'm sorry, but if an appraiser gives you a range, a value or tells you the value is high or low and or a comp check. Well, that is an appraisal per USPAP. You guys should take at least 1 appraisal course not just a chapter before you give your stupid ideas. Bottom line your uneducated idiots! Maybe you guys should sell used cars or electronics since you don’t have Basic Real Estate Education!

USF Appraisals, LLC: (October 15, 2009 3:47am)

Frank and Brian... Championing the causes of brokers everywhere... championing the causes of appraisers only when it can line their pockets. Let's just cut through the bulldoodoo. I like your show... but you're no different than any other local broker that gives me some borrower's sob story needing an idea if value is doable. Either way... it's a business decision we each have to make. Go USF! Beat Cinci tonight!

Appraiser: (October 15, 2009 3:39am)

I think it is commonly accepted, or at least should be, that two appraisers are likely to have slightly different opinions of value for a given property. The frustration that appraisers ran into was loan officers wanting to be sure that a certain value would be attained before actually given the assignement to do the appraisal. When you are looking at the honest difference of a couple of thousand dollars to make a loan work, you have to complete the appraisal process substantially in order to know what the exact number is going to be. When someone wants the answer without ordering or paying for the work that is the frustration. Commision based work is fundamentally different than fee based work. When an apprasier says something about the value of the property (i.e. "yes it will make value"; "its between x and y"; "no it wont make value"; etc.) even if communicated only verbally, they have technically completed an appraisal and have certain standards to meet in so doing. The other problem with asking if a value is attainable before engaging the appraiser is that ethical standards prohibit an appraiser from accepting an assignment that is contingent on making a predetermined value or where the fee is contingent on something happening in the future such as a loan closing. The HVCC has changed this aspect of the industry, but the problems with the practical implementation of the HVCC far out weigh the relative benefits.