Borrowers Suing BofA and Wells - The New Craze - 09.14.10 | Florida Association of Mortgage Professionals : Florida Association of Mortgage Professionals : Tallahassee, FL

JoeParsons: (September 15, 2010 8:07am)

@Bono Vox: I was not using that term against any individual participating in this discussion. My point is the evident hypocrisy of hat "movement." Personally, I believe that the running up of the deficit and the debt on the part of GWB actually DID "break the camel's back;" we as a nation are now having to deal with those consequences.

Fundem: (September 15, 2010 7:57am)

Hey BonoVox; what planet are you on? Obama increased the debt 2-3x what Bush did?? Do you remember the SURPLUS Bush had? Where was Obama's surplus?? GOP runs up the debt when in power then when they lose they cry about spending; oh the hypocrisy of the GOP.

Bono Vox: (September 15, 2010 6:50am)

New Paradigm - thanks for the note! JoeParsons - no argument on Bush. He started loading the straw on the camels back and Conservatives didn't like his policies. Obama came along, increased the deficit by 2-3x, through uncertainty into the system with healthcare reform, higher taxes and finreg, and everyone is afraid to move. Bush loaded the camel up, Obama broke it's back and people have had enough. If this were soccer, Bush would have committed the first foul, but the ref only say Obama's retalitory foul. All that said, I wouldn't use a pejorative against you on this site. It's hurts the feeling of community that Brian and Frank are trying to create.

Valuequestor: (September 15, 2010 2:10am)

Well, I registered for AFI. I like the sound of it and your recommendation 5pence.

Mtggoddess: (September 14, 2010 7:03pm)

Well I feel so special. Thanks for making me a celebrity today.

5pence: (September 14, 2010 5:53pm)

Oh wow. Totally sorry if anybody go the impression that was me that wrote the legislation. I don't take undeserved kudos and always give credit where credit is due.

5pence: (September 14, 2010 5:45pm)

I'm sorry Randy and all, I thought I made it clear in the next post that I didn't write the legislation, that was an e-mail from someone that did. My sincere apologies to all that might have mistook that post as being about me. 1,000 characters is all you're allowed here and I had to trim down to the nub that e-mail copy and pasted post quite a bit so it would fit. I tried to explain that it wasn't me in the next post and in subsequent posts. It's someone I know and they post at AFI if you need more info. Link is in a prior post. Randy, maybe I'm not getting any work at all because the banks all know my name and how much I hate AMC's, lol

W.R.Buchanan: (September 14, 2010 4:38pm)

5pence: Kind of need to declare who exactly you are, as in "what is your name?" And how did you get in the position to actually write this legislation? I'm not questioning the truth of what you say, I just want to know who I am talking to. MY name is William R.Buchanan and I live in Ojai CA. I sign my posts as W.R.Buchanan, which is actually my real name... Here's a thought???? And this is directed to everyone who does not use their real name to sign their posts. Why don't you guys sign your real name to your posts instead of some bullshit or cute "nom de blog." It might give just a little more credibility to your posts. If you are penalized for being part of this blog and speaking your mind by your peers then I think you need new peers!If your boss doesn't like what you say, SUE HIM! 1st Ammendment, and all? 5pence, I want to hear more, because if you are that well connected then we need to have a serious talk. You may contact me directly at [email protected] Randy

5pence: (September 14, 2010 4:14pm)

BTW, I can verify all this with my own past discussions with Sen. Kanjorski's aides. I knew an appraiser was there in the talks and helping craft the bill, but didn't know who, or their affiliations if any, for certain, until now. BTW, the battle goes on. Appraisers support AFI (link in previous post) any way you can. Thanks.

5pence: (September 14, 2010 4:05pm)

LOL Valuequestor : Thanks and it is enlightening to all I'm sure to know that one person can still make a huge difference. Throwing money at the problem thinking that will cure it, almost never does. Action is what's needed and while it no longer seems possible, one unselfish person without deep pockets but an honest desire to do what's right for all of us has proven that it is. This is truly a shining example for me and for all of you I'd hope. Learn it and live it my friends. You can make a difference.

Valuequestor: (September 14, 2010 2:09pm)

5pence: Did I miss something? Just who are you my friend? Everyone who's a regular here knows you are a true fountain of knowledge, and I mean that with all sincerity. Today's discussion has been rivetting....WOW!

5pence: (September 14, 2010 1:58pm)

Randy, I'm not disparaging joining appraiser advocates, I'm just saying that our efforts would be better served by acting more directly than by paying someone to "advocate" that doesn't have the astonishing (to me) affect of just 1 person acting on their own in all our defense.

5pence: (September 14, 2010 1:51pm)

This is part of an e-mail received - it's shows you what we appraisrs are up against, all by ourselves. It wasn't lobbyists that wrote the bill, or the AI or ASA, it was ONE INDIVIDUAL willing to give of their time for this profession. 1 guy that had the balls to actually be there on his own dime to defend us all. That alone is what made the difference and that is what we need. No promises of join this or join that we can help. He isn't a paid lobbyist or leading memeber of any organization, and yet was listened to and allowed to write part of the bill. That's what we need. Someone that actually watches over our interests. He's shown it doesn't take a ton of money to make a difference. Join AFI (Appraisers For Independence). He started it and it's free and offers information of many ways appraisers can protect their livelihoods and their jobs going forward. Link here. http://appraisersforindependence.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=53

5pence: (September 14, 2010 1:42pm)

When I wrote the legislation, now law in HR4173, I anticipated the problems with the C&R (The specific term Customary & Reasonable). I tried like hell to get that more defined but was really hard. I was in a fight with some really tough opponents & time was an issue, in the end they used that term because it was already in use by HUD. As you know the 2nd & 3rd attempt to get it to pass failed and with much persistence finally it did pass. There was about 12 pages I had to rip out of there because who needs 12 pages to define what an AMC is, TAVMA & the rest wanted to define an AMC as an appraiser, and define an Appraiser as the guy liable, if you think that’s crazy you should have seen some of the other stuff in there. If I wasn't there to fight this, we would be sooooo royally &^%$#@ right now it isn't even funny. I say that because I was by myself, I didn't see Appraiser 1 behind me. Not the ACLU, Not the AI, Not the many groups shouting we support Appraisers...nothing, nadda, NOBODY

5pence: (September 14, 2010 1:26pm)

Capitalism has devolved into taking from the middle/lower classes & giving it to the rich. Capitalism as it exists today does not promote this republics democracy but seeks to destroy it. The banks have been planning this for years. Now homeowners are the rats trapped in the corner by the banks instead of the other way around. I'm telling you, "we the people" are not to blame for this continued meltdown. cpappraiser: TAVMA has no right to request a delay in the FINREG bill about "reasonable & customary" appraisers fees. They are totally left out of all fee decisions & involvement in how appraisers are paid. VA & the Wintotal survey, as well as all the HUD-1's show historical fees & fees that the homeowner has been required to pay since AMC dominance. That is part of what I wrote to Bernanke. Others are writing to them right now. I mean it's a duh, TAVMA, banks & AMC's can have no input on fees! So how they request an extension & it appear a reasonable request? They can't.

sandance: (September 14, 2010 12:48pm)

W.R. Buchanan is right on re these criminal banks! I'm serious folks, it's time to GET INVOLVED! Our system is set up to reward those who have money, and not set up to be a democracy, so campaign finance reform should be the highest priority in this country, at least among us "CITIZENS!" Buchanan's comments bear repeating: "These outfits are criminal and that's a well documented fact. Why isn't the government arresting them and throwing away the key? Answer: because the people in our govt are on the take is why. Follow the money! Campaign donations from companies is one of the biggest problems we have in this country. Until it is eliminated,,, NOTHING WILL CHANGE! Focus on Political Advocacy nothing else really matters in this fight."

barryl: (September 14, 2010 12:13pm)

A vanilla tripple layer cake recipe (what, no chocolate!)calls for one part Cher and one part Madonna. Precool the stage to 72F for 35 minutes. Not sure what this recipe will make, but I no what it wont make!

Ed Kittle: (September 14, 2010 11:46am)

I am hearing from several lawyers in my area that B of A is suing the #$%$^&* out of people on 1st T.D. that they approved for short sale. The lawyers say there are several hundred cases pending now in Placer County CA. Anyone else hearing this??

W.R.Buchanan: (September 14, 2010 10:40am)

Gmeans: We all know you're right, but the one thing that must be considered here is this one single point. THE BANKS DON'T GIVE A SHIT! All they are interested in is bottom line and were they get it is of absolutely no consequence whatsoever! Until we remove the incentive for the bank's facilitators, IE congress, nothing will change. I saw a cartoon recently where a bunch of bank officials were sitting around a table with their lawyer. He said " well, what you want to do is definately illegal, so you should only do it once!" Sound Familiar? take the money out of congress, you fix the problem.

[email protected]: (September 14, 2010 10:02am)

How many people have you met that tried Loan Modifications only to be asked for the same documents 6 times over. Then finally just simply cancalled by the bank? The bank cancelled not the borrowers. If there are crooks in the business and talk about ethical behavior some of these guys (banks) should really take a close look at their practices! Honestly shameful in some cases and all too often re-occurs! Would be better and more honest if they just said no but instead choose take borrower after borrower down a path of false hope! Thats my opinion and have customers who have called to get free advice! I recommend customers simply let the banks know how they feel and move their money to smaller more locally based credit unions and state banks or sue. I am usually a defender of our industry but this side of the business is an embarassment!

DanSchweihs: (September 14, 2010 9:52am)

Distributing accurate info about this to people in all the counties in all 50 states might stir up a prosecutor with ambition. Somebody handed Rudy Giuliani an insider trading case in New York years ago and he decided to run with it. Giuliani eventually became Governor and ran for US president. The original case he was handed was not that great. But it grew and grew. The case against BofA will grow. These are old countrywide people here working at BofA. This case will grow and grow. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

DanSchweihs: (September 14, 2010 9:51am)

I am too old to start any litigation like this. I won a $4.6 million settlement back in my youth and was paid. I know the legal system works based on my actual experience. It just doesn’t work the way it is described on TV. If you contact the guys below that won the civil judgment (but never got paid) they can probably supply some facts. Contact that California prosecutor. Run the facts as one of your daily shows. See if you can get that prosecutor on you show. You clients know the difference between right and wrong and know this is wrong. Your viewers will be interested in this. Your viewers feel like little guys that would like to fight back. You have a chance to really make a difference. Your viewers will tell other viewers about this and the number of viewers that subscribe to you service will grow.

W.R.Buchanan: (September 14, 2010 9:26am)

One last point. As an appraiser I have seen first hand the abuses of large banks on home owners trying to refi their homes only to be put off for Months and in one case literally over one full year only to be denied. I suggested to the owners on my second trip for the 4th appraisal on their 2 BR condo, that they sue JP Morgan/Chase. B of A and Wells are just as bad, and for the money they've taken for the express purpose of helping homeowners for the taxpayers, we've got precious Sweet F%^& All in return. These outfits are criminal and that's a well documented fact. Why isn't the government arresting them and throwing away the key? Answer: because the people in our govt are on the take is why. Follow the money! Campaign donations from companies is one of the biggest problems we have in this country. Until it is eliminated,,, NOTHING WILL CHANGE! Focus on Political Advocacy nothing else really matters in this fight.

cpappraisal: (September 14, 2010 9:23am)

EVERYONE-Please write or call to Chairman Ben Bernanke disputing the letter sent to him from TAVMA trying to delay the provision of the Dodd-Frank bill stating we are to be paid "reasonable and customary fees". TAVMA tells him in their letter that the infomation is not readily available which we all know is BS. Please please write and call...Let's not let this bill get delayed and lets start getting these AMC's fined!!!

W.R.Buchanan: (September 14, 2010 9:13am)

Also, here's another little tidbit. If you're sitting back waiting to see what happens, you're wasting your life. If you sit and wait, the banks will win. They have lobbyists in place right this minute trying to defeat everything we as appraisers do. Until we build the numbers in membership we can only have a small effect. As our numbers grow, our effectiveness increases EXPONETIALLY. This is why every one of you appraisers hiding out there needs to join this group. You MUST contribute to the efforts of the group! Your very survival depends on it. Sitting back and maybe posting an opinion on a website here and there doesn't really amount to support. It amounts to being a dilitante. You need to actively join and support a group that is ADVOVATING for YOU at the Local and National level. Most groups are NOT doing this. CCAP is!!! www.cacap.org. Randy Thanks for getting this topic started JustFrank !

W.R.Buchanan: (September 14, 2010 9:02am)

Well said JustFrank!!!!! We at the CCAP don't openly endorse most other groups mainly because most other groups don't tend to focus totally on political advocacy for Appraisers. We focus on Political Advocacy for this fight completely, because this is where the fight is. If you go to our website www.cacap.org you can take our survey on "reasonable and customary fees" which is one of the fights we've got going right now. We have well defined positions stated on virtually everything that affects appraisers on this site, and we welcome your input and comments. Also and more importantly we welcome your membership in this our significant political action group. We need your membership because with more members comes more respect from congress and local officials...Guys we are not sitting on our duffs waiting to see what happens. We are actively seeking to make things happen. www.cacap.org. come join us in the fight, it's way better than hiding! Randy

gts: (September 14, 2010 8:51am)

Good! I hope the lieing cheating piece of shit BoA get's their asses sued off of them. They are the most crooked bank in existance!

LouisianaAppraiser: (September 14, 2010 8:41am)

Well said JUSTFRANK101 -

JoeParsons: (September 14, 2010 8:40am)

@Bono Vox: I am well aware of the meaning of "teabagger." I use the term pejoratively on purpose. I am anything but a hater--I do, however view the "Tea Party Patriots" (happy now?) with a certain contempt. Apart from the patent ridiculousness of so many of them (costumes, etc.), they were notably silent as our national debt escalated spectacularly during the previous administration's watch. I mean, come on--increasing the debt 30% in eight years? Not a peep. it looks suspiciously like sour grapes from a group who seems to confuse "tyranny" with "losing an election."

NewParadigm: (September 14, 2010 8:39am)

@Bono Vox - me too. I had know-it-all borrowers go to another lender for 125% CLTV refi's because "his Realtor will appraise it at whatever I need". I had lender's reps that actually told me to write up a side deal for a seller second and write it up as a gift. Other Realtors flatly refused to work with me because they got cash in a plain white envelop at closing from other los. You are right, enforcement is the issue; has been since I got in the industry in 1991. Congratulations on maintaining integrity. I wish you and everyone like you much success!

JUSTFRANK101: (September 14, 2010 8:38am)

never remove glasses while typing - - - - - - They may not ENDORSE any other appraisal association but their fight is an honorable one

JUSTFRANK101: (September 14, 2010 8:34am)

funny ending ---- but their fight supports the same cause you value too

JUSTFRANK101: (September 14, 2010 8:32am)

Exactly how Passionate can a business minded person be that once had a very profitable business that is now dictated by Appraisal Damagement Companies. Sure it easy to say – “oh we don’t depend on Residential Appraisals for our main source of income” Our main business is through divorce lawyers and private parties – well B – S to that. These days there are so many starving Appraisers that part of the Appraisal Business has been gobbled up leaving very few job possibilities. I love what I do. I enjoy every moment of the work that I must personally involve myself in to accomplish an appraisal and then some Fu__ Wad sends me an email asking what is in the boxes in a picture of the interior of a garage that holds up my appraisal report and deems me LATE… Yes, I am extremely Passionate – passionate about GETTING MY BUSINESS BACK. Recently I found discomfort being associated to these folks but they seem to be the only ones making a real effort to straighten things out. Join the cause, because it is your RIGHT to select your own business. [email protected] - - - - - 805-241-7770 They may not ENDORSE any other appraisal association but their f

Bono Vox: (September 14, 2010 8:22am)

redisetgo: I've never heard of a Realtor losing his or her license. I suspect there is little enforcement of their fiduciary responsibility. No one is calling on Realtors to be sued because they bullied LOs into "making the deal work or else" or because they bullied appraisers into "making the deal work or else" or because they bullied inspector and title cos into "making the deal work or else". I was fired by a lot of Realtors because my appraisers came in low or because I couldn't get a 490 credit score approved with 3.5% down. There is blame to go around - let's move on and do it right this time!

Bono Vox: (September 14, 2010 8:17am)

Quick hits: Typically the market won't improve until folks believe it's bottomed out. Unti that happens, gov't intervention won't turn things around....Refis are everywhere and purchases are bouncing back - life is good.....NMLS score: 90 yay!....You can't touch a big bank. They don't pay to create innovative products or improved service, they pay to lobby everyone else out of business (sorry appraisers and mtg brokers)....JoeParson - don't be a name calling, hater. Google "Teabagger" - it's not a Tea Party member. Bush spent too much money, too, and any Conservative will tell you that. As far as culpability in the housing mess, read WSJ editorial from '03 and '04. Bush tried to reign in Fannie/Freddie, was over ruled by Congress, and didn't have the cojones to push back.....People - based on your marketshare today, imagine what you'll be making in when the market comes back...FIRE UP THAT PASSION AND UNBRIDLED JOY!!!

redisetgo: (September 14, 2010 8:15am)

This seems like such an easy problem to fix, I wonder if I'm the only one who thinks so. When this whole mess started, if we had only required loan originators/officers to have a fiduciary relationship with their clients, as do Realtors, they could not have put their clients into these crappy loans. Is it too late to at least "try" this seemingly "easy" fix?

DanSchweihs: (September 14, 2010 8:02am)

Kkric: BofA understands its exposure here. Successful litigation against them on the criminal fraud they have committed is a deal breaker for them. BofA would fail. Successful criminal litigation makes them the next Enron. Really, they would loose all government contracts and become the next Enron. They will fight it to the death. Because it is life or death for BofA. Now the crazy part is that the criminal case is actually a laydown. If you or I did this “bait and switch” that ruined peoples lives, we would be in jail. And a prosecutor would have an easy win against BofA with a jury. We just need a prosecutor who wants to be a governor. He can actually fix America with one verdict.

thevinehouse: (September 14, 2010 7:33am)

Let's get something straight. There clearly were people who were in mortgages they should never have been put into. If that was due to fraudlent activity on their part, they deserve what they are getting. However, the "moral" issues begin to disappear from there. Let's not forget that the financial industry made the risky investments and created the financial products that bottomed out so badly it has virtually brought the nation's economy to its knees, including the livilihoods of many real estate and mortgage professionals! Add politics to this and we're all in trouble. This nation's economy will never recover without stabilization of the housing market. Housing and all it brings to our economy is just too big a part of it. To modify or not modify? It's way too late to be even asking that question. People, this is a national tragedy! Even the "too big to fail" banks may have a great deal to be concerned about long term. There is no moral issue here - it is a matter of survival!

Rob in AZ: (September 14, 2010 7:30am)

Thanks for the clip from "Network". If you haven't seen the whole thing, go rent it today. It is AMAZING how well it predicted today's CNN, FOX, etc. news as entertainment.

kkric: (September 14, 2010 7:30am)

Dan. Interesting what you said about no state prosecutor suing a TBTF bank. Calif Atty General has sued Countrywide (not TBTF) and gotten a stipulated judgment calling for $8 billion in cost of loan mods. After Cwide was taken over by BofA, I helped a friend apply for a loan mod under the program. We documented throughly and provided calculations and a copy of the judgment showing my friend qualified and calculated what he was entitled to. Naturally, at first B of A denied the judgment existed, until communicating with the office of the president with copies of the judgment. Suddenly, someone at the lower level knew about the judgment and promised to process. Naturally they concluded he did not qualify but would provide no reason. Contacted Atty Genl attorneys who said "they were aware of the problem". But, of course, they did nothing now that it was B of A and BofA got out of the 8 billion judgment for essentially zero cost.

cpappraisal: (September 14, 2010 7:27am)

So we all need to write him as well and let him know the VA has posted fees for years as well as the WinTotal survey that is and has been available.

cpappraisal: (September 14, 2010 7:27am)

Oh and if you guys want to see the winny letter that they wrote here is the website http://www.tavma.org/images/tavma_title%20xiv%20delay%20letter_final.pdf

cpappraisal: (September 14, 2010 7:24am)

TAVMA reported to Ben Bernanke that they are in objection toeh the "customary and reasonable" appraisa fee provision of the Dodd-Frank Act. Ha! That is what they get! Greedy SOB's! According to TAVMA they want to delay the deadline because the data for "customary and reasonable" fees is not avaiable at this time but they know damned well that WinTotal put out a report because they didn't like it and they disputed it. Sorry off subject but I had to share...

NewParadigm: (September 14, 2010 7:15am)

Brian & Frank are right about passion being key to your success but not "Face it. If we knew how to do anything else, we'd probably be doing it now" - lmao. If you can originate mortgages, you can do lots of other things! Give yourselves the credit you deserve for being good at sales, marketing, financial advising, credit counseling, expediting, mediation ... then listen to my most recent song "Until My Dreams Come True" FREE @ http://tiny.cc/Sassy.

DanSchweihs: (September 14, 2010 6:54am)

Uncle Sam is attempting to fix this with “to-big-to-regulate” regulators. FINREG will be regulating everything from BofA (servicing 22% of all mortgages in US) to a family-owned paycheck-cashing firm in an ethnic neighborhood. To-big-to-regulate regulators will be our problem for the next few years. FINREG can kick an independent mortgage firm around to get a headline, but they will not have the resources or patience to take on BofA.

Real Estate Nate: (September 14, 2010 6:53am)

As for bank behavior, I applaud the success of those who have sued and won, however, I believe its delusional to think their behavior will change and even more delusional to think there will be legislation to force them to do so. As for passion, I chose to be a Realtor and have only been doing it for 1 year full time. I have 12 listings and am working with 4 buyers. The money is a bit sporadic but I'm working on that. I get to walk my kids to school and volunteer at church due to the flexibility. I'm lovin' life!

DanSchweihs: (September 14, 2010 6:52am)

HAMP has been a “bait and switch” scam for the too-big-to-fail banks from the beginning. They promise HAMP and switch borrowers into high-fee in-house REFIs called modifications. If we intentionally did “bait and switch” sales techniques (fraud) we would go to jail. Intentional fraud is criminal fraud and a huge pattern of fraud indicates intent. Fraud with intent is criminal fraud. This is misrepresentation (fraud) and it is not accidental fraud. But too-big-to-fail is too-big-to sue. BofA will tie up civil litigation for eight years. And no state prosecutor will file anything against a too-big-to-fail bank and expect to continue their career.

REB: (September 14, 2010 6:29am)

Wells has screwed us over big time! Never late on a payment - entered into loan mod prg in Oct 2009, denied Aug 2010 - 11 months later. Now they want $33k or foreclose - where's the justice in this process? And since they only record when full payments are collected, we are showing no payments received since Feb 2010. Prime dealings for a lawsuit?

Realist 1: (September 14, 2010 6:12am)

Another really good question is why do the regulators allow the banks to behave as they do?

barbara: (September 14, 2010 5:59am)

BOA is staffed by idiots. I just got a loan approved, in a perfect submission (hard to do these days, with no stips), and they had foreclosed 2 days prior. Nobody told the agents, so now we wait for the new sales price. I know it might have been going on for sometime, so I don't need those comments. It's just so damned hard to please the underwriters these days. And the one perfect submission was a FC! The mortgage gods are trying to drive me crazy!

gheinecke1: (September 14, 2010 4:56am)

I recently sued BOA and requested a jury trial and we won hands down. If you are interested in details feel free to email us at [email protected] The public shouldn't take this garbage anymore.

kkric: (September 14, 2010 2:29am)

Realist. Glad to see someone else recognizes that these two banks are essentially engaging in criminal behavior. Anything that increases their losses, or causes them legal grief, is good for society.

Realist 1: (September 14, 2010 2:07am)

I have encountered a few Condo projects in LA county in which the HOA's are actually insolvent or bordering on insolvency. When this happens, the property values drop, sales dry up and lending comes to a standstill. It also wreaks havoc with the residents in the condo project as HOA fees skyrocket. In actual cases of insolvency and all kinds of liens show up and services are cut for non-payment to vendors. Is this the tip of an iceberg?

Realist 1: (September 14, 2010 1:55am)

Good. It's about time these criminal banks have to answer for what they have done.